Chiropractic Healthiness

Question:

You know, you are a heartless person.  We’re talking about the suffering of an animal and you think it’s a big damn joke.  I feel sorry for anyone that attempts to show you compassion, and I hope your dog/cat never get’s sick..for it’s sake. Jay H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Surely, your dog got the bladder infections as a result of vaccines & ritalin.

Response:

I think he was just making a joke about some of the alt med ideas, not about your dog being in pain.  I thought he was being funny, and I welcomed the joke because I think, from what I can see in this newsgroup so far, we just get too darn serious some of the time, we need some humor to lighten things up, don’t you think so? Love, Leora – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You know, you are a heartless person.  We’re talking about > the suffering of an animal and you think it’s a big damn > joke.  I feel sorry for anyone that attempts to show you > compassion, and I hope your dog/cat never get’s sick..for > it’s sake. > Jay H > Surely, your dog got the bladder infections as a result of vaccines & ritalin.

Response:

Leora, Well, that depends on the Chiropractor, actually.  Many chiropractors understand their profession in its proper context.  Many that I have met have no problem with vaccinating their children, using antibiotics for infections and the like. However, there are many DC’s that espouse non-sense such as NOT_Dr C, who is NOT a chiropractor (nor anything, for that matter).   Many DC’s believe that all disease is due to subluxations of the spine or nervous system.   Having been to about a dozen DC’s, having had a few as teachers, having been to 2 Chiropractic conventions in Orlando, I can tell you that far too many practice outside their training.   Many attempt to treat infectious disease with spinal manipulation, homeopathics, or worse.   Many discourage expectant mothers to eschew vaccinations for their children.  Many have such outright jealousy of MD’s that they just can’t allow themselves to accept the validity of anything they (MD’s) do.   Do note Jay’s response: >Maybe because I’m not a specialist DVM in > >vetrinary orthopedic manipulation.

It sounds as if he considers such an approach a valid treatment for a dog’s UTI. <<Sigh>>  Why victimize man’s best friend with Health Pornography?

Response:

>Or amalgam fillings.  (Sorry, couldn’t resist that one.)

How about breast implants?

Response:

>You know, you are a heartless person.  We’re talking about >the suffering of an animal and you think it’s a big damn >joke.  I feel sorry for anyone that attempts to show you >compassion, and I hope your dog/cat never get’s sick..for >it’s sake. >Jay H

Don’t let Andrew get to you Jay. You are totally correct about him. He is very bitter and full of hate and rage. He is just a troll. His only goal here is to criticize and belittle. He has been caught in so many lies, still hasn’t learned a thing. He still needs to grow up, he is still in the cocky teenager mode. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Surely, your dog got the bladder infections as a result of vaccines & >ritalin.

Response:

Jay, Oh, so its okay to believe that drivel you preach, but it is heartless to recommend your own methods for one of your loved ones? Go to a vet.  Get a trained professional to help her instead of asking your Internet buddies for vet advice.   If you love her, you won’t trust her well being to anonymous Goombas who post here. As for jokes, I think your comments on the NG are frequently bad jokes in the context of scientific medicine.   I hope that your kids never have ADHD (which you say is just a diagnosis to drug kids into zombie like compliance)   That shows a lot of compassion, doesn’t it?   Its okay to talk like that when you are discussing kids, but when your doggie has a UTI, its heartless. Jay, you are a good example of why going to a chiropractor is a crap-shoot. You don’t trust your medical model for your treating a dog, but you’ll use it on somebody’s kids.

Response:

I think you’re misrepresenting my opinions with someone elses.  To be clear:  I understand the subluxation model and why it works for some things and why it helps the body’s immune system overall, however I also understand it’s limitations and understand the necessity for using other things (like antibiotics, vaccinations, emergency care, and non-pushed drugs).   Don’t try to pretend that any chiropractor that posts here only espouses spinal manipulation as a cure-all, and especially don’t attempt to speak for me.   Just because I understand the neurology of the chiropractic model and you don’t, doesn’t mean that your ignorance justifies attacks against chiropractic or vetrinary manipulation either. If you’re here just to criticize any chiropractor that claims to have helped someone, you’re way off base too. Yes, I’ve helped lots of people, including babies with colic, a teenager with epilepsy, elderly folks with cervicogenic vertigo, people with headaches from TMJD, women with intense menstrual pain, even trauma-patients with decreased visual fields; and do you know what?  I consulted with a MD’s and specialists on EVERY SINGLE CASE; in other words, I provided what is known as Complimentary Therapy and co-treated to get the patient better.   I didn’t run down vaccinations or say that chiropractic adjustments are all that you need, but you seem to think so.  Is that just because I know what the heck I’m talking about when I speak on the subject of chiropractic as a complimentary and alternative therapy?  Afterall, I am a professional in chiropractic.  It’s what I do.  Does my opinion somehow not count on the subject of chiropractic, because I’m a chiropractor?   You’re not talking to Atlas here, so don’t try to treat me like you do straight chiropractors.  If you’re not smart enough not to lump us all into one group, maybe you shouldn’t comment.  If it just bugs you to see that chiropractors, nutritionists, osteopathic physicians, and other people are helping people, you don’t have your _heart_ in the right place (and don’t claim to be helping people by ‘exposing the truth’ because you obviously don’t know it beyond your repeated and unhelpful tabloid-type comments). Lastly, I’ve tried MANY different antibiotics for Ripley, and the vet is currently unable to help her.  If there’s a way to give her cranberry juice, spinal manipulations, and anything else that will help her fight off the infection while taking the antibiotics, I’M ALL FOR IT. Dr. Jay A. Hafner, DC (specializing in helping people get well and stay well)

Response:

>Lastly, I’ve tried MANY different antibiotics for Ripley, >and the vet is currently unable to help her.  If there’s a >way to give her cranberry juice, spinal manipulations, and >anything else that will help her fight off the infection >while taking the antibiotics, I’M ALL FOR IT.

As with people, sometimes it is helpful to get a second opinion; ie go to another vet and see if they have a different approach or med. Yes, I do understand that you are not Atlas and have much more going for you than he.   However, your drivel about Ritalin & ADHD does far more to discredit a far larger and more helpful profession (psychology) than does anything and everything I have said about chiropractic. Jay, I go to a DC a few times a year and don’t hesitate to refer to one in particular….for muscular and skeletal type of complaints.   I had 2 teachers in school who were DC’s.  Both were likable folk, but both had some pretty far out 19th century BELIEFS about disease.  I think it is unfortunate that you would consider your dog’s condition one that is amenable to (spinal) adjustments.   There is no valid information that validates the chiro claim that manipulations improve immunity. Again, bear in mind how odious you find my comments and yet how you ignore the stench of your psychologist bashing and ADHD dissing.   You are far off base, way out of your expertise and just quoting dogma.  Do a little research, first. Best of luck to the pooch.  

Response:

I thought that chiropractors didn’t eschew conventional medicine, that they believed that spinal manipulation can help some things but not others….in other words, they would not claim that spinal manipulation would cure a bladder infection….am I wrong about that? Love, Leora – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hmmm.  Sounds like you don’t have so much faith in your medical model when it > comes to real medical problems that affect one of your loved ones. >No, I haven’t tried that Mark.  Maybe because I’m not a specialist DVM in >vetrinary orthopedic manipulation. >Thanks for the help and caring though. >> Spinal manipulation didn’t work?  Surely the infection >> is only a symptom of an underlying subluxation. >> Cure that, and you cure the animal.  :-)

Response:

Actually I do.  The recuperative power of the body, mind and soul are pretty amazing, but ‘whatever’ interference you remove helps Thanks. jay H

  Sounds like you don’t have so much faith in your medical model when it > comes to real medical problems  

Thanks. jay H

Response:

Hmmm.  Sounds like you don’t have so much faith in your medical model when it comes to real medical problems that affect one of your loved ones.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->No, I haven’t tried that Mark.  Maybe because I’m not a specialist DVM in >vetrinary orthopedic manipulation. >Thanks for the help and caring though. > Spinal manipulation didn’t work?  Surely the infection > is only a symptom of an underlying subluxation. > Cure that, and you cure the animal.  :-)

Response:

You’re welcome!  :-)

Response:

Try spinal adjustments, cell salts, homeopathics, and contact reflex muscle testing.   If that fails, try TFT. Surely, your dog got the bladder infections as a result of vaccines & ritalin.

Response:

Or amalgam fillings.  (Sorry, couldn’t resist that one.) Love, Leora – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Try spinal adjustments, cell salts, homeopathics, and contact reflex muscle > testing.   If that fails, try TFT. > Surely, your dog got the bladder infections as a result of vaccines & ritalin.

Response:

Thanks for all the help! Jay & Ripley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I hope so much that your dog gets better soon.  Bladder infections seldom kill, but > they really do diminish the quality of life while they are active.  I don’t blame > you for being fed up, it’s very frustrating when you keep going back and the > condition doesn’t seem to be cured in spite of all that is done.  I’m so glad you > are thinking of going to another vet, because I think that bladder or kidney stones > might possibly be the problem here, with the recurrent infections, and the > inconclusive results (in fact, when I had my kidney stone that went hand-in-hand > with the infection – hard to tell which caused which – the results were also > inconclusive, it was a case of mixed pathogens – I was told that isn’t an uncommon > diagnosis with kidney stones accompanied by infection, though….) and I’m keeping > my fingers crossed that your new vet will find the problem quickly and fix it.  I’d > also like to recommend a CAT scan instead of X-rays, as X-rays can often miss > kidney stones (only certain types show up – mine didn’t show on the X-rays, but > showed up very clearly on the CAT scan).  Also, at least in a human, if stones are > not found, and an active infection is not found, but the irritative voiding > symptoms continue, the next step is usually cystoscopy – looking inside the bladder > with a scope to rule out bladder cancer (very rare, but it’s always nice to rule > something like that out) and to see if there are signs of interstitial cystitis or > other problems. > I’m keeping my fingers crossed for your dog, and am glad that she has an owner who > will go to such great lengths to help her be healthy and happy.  Every animal > should have such an owner! > Love, Leora > > the case with dogs, as well.  Did the vet do a lab culture to determine what > > organism or organisms was/were causing the infection, and to make sure the > > antibiotic prescribed would work? > Yes, but the results were ‘inconclusive.’  I’ll probably have to get another > Vet’s opinion.  I don’t like the thought of an animal, especially a dog, > sufferring.  Although she was the runt of the litter, she’s had recurrent > infections since about 4 months. > > Also, in humans, at least, kidney stones or some other abnormality (blockage) > Yes, that’s a definate possibility.  Hopefully the vet owns an xray machine > > I hope your dog gets better and doesn’t get any more of those awful UTI’s. > > Love, Leora > Thanks! > Jay & Ripley

– —— Jay A. Hafner, DC, CCEP Clinic Director – Colorado Spine and Rehabilitation – Denver http://www.chiroweb.com/ City of Edgewater, Park & Recreation Board Member http://edgewaterco.com/ RPGA Living Greyhawk Triad Oligarch, County of Urnst, Mountain States: CO/WY/NM/MT http://www.cyface.com/countyofurnst/ (Living Greyhawk Web Page for County of Urnst) http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/lgwriters (Living Greyhawk Writers Discussion Group) http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/ghclub http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/countyofurnst (All RPGA’ers from the Mountain States MUST read!!!) http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/livingworld

Response:

> the case with dogs, as well.  Did the vet do a lab culture to determine what > organism or organisms was/were causing the infection, and to make sure the > antibiotic prescribed would work?

Yes, but the results were ‘inconclusive.’  I’ll probably have to get another Vet’s opinion.  I don’t like the thought of an animal, especially a dog, sufferring.  Although she was the runt of the litter, she’s had recurrent infections since about 4 months. > Also, in humans, at least, kidney stones or some other abnormality (blockage)

Yes, that’s a definate possibility.  Hopefully the vet owns an xray machine > I hope your dog gets better and doesn’t get any more of those awful UTI’s. > Love, Leora

Thanks! Jay & Ripley

Response:

I hope so much that your dog gets better soon.  Bladder infections seldom kill, but they really do diminish the quality of life while they are active.  I don’t blame you for being fed up, it’s very frustrating when you keep going back and the condition doesn’t seem to be cured in spite of all that is done.  I’m so glad you are thinking of going to another vet, because I think that bladder or kidney stones might possibly be the problem here, with the recurrent infections, and the inconclusive results (in fact, when I had my kidney stone that went hand-in-hand with the infection – hard to tell which caused which – the results were also inconclusive, it was a case of mixed pathogens – I was told that isn’t an uncommon diagnosis with kidney stones accompanied by infection, though….) and I’m keeping my fingers crossed that your new vet will find the problem quickly and fix it.  I’d also like to recommend a CAT scan instead of X-rays, as X-rays can often miss kidney stones (only certain types show up – mine didn’t show on the X-rays, but showed up very clearly on the CAT scan).  Also, at least in a human, if stones are not found, and an active infection is not found, but the irritative voiding symptoms continue, the next step is usually cystoscopy – looking inside the bladder with a scope to rule out bladder cancer (very rare, but it’s always nice to rule something like that out) and to see if there are signs of interstitial cystitis or other problems. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for your dog, and am glad that she has an owner who will go to such great lengths to help her be healthy and happy.  Every animal should have such an owner! Love, Leora – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the case with dogs, as well.  Did the vet do a lab culture to determine what > organism or organisms was/were causing the infection, and to make sure the > antibiotic prescribed would work? > Yes, but the results were ‘inconclusive.’  I’ll probably have to get another > Vet’s opinion.  I don’t like the thought of an animal, especially a dog, > sufferring.  Although she was the runt of the litter, she’s had recurrent > infections since about 4 months. > Also, in humans, at least, kidney stones or some other abnormality (blockage) > Yes, that’s a definate possibility.  Hopefully the vet owns an xray machine > I hope your dog gets better and doesn’t get any more of those awful UTI’s. > Love, Leora > Thanks! > Jay & Ripley

Response:

She get’s a 30 minute walk once per day, and gets out to pee about 1/hour.  We have a hard time getting her to drink enough water throughout the day though, even though it’s accessable 24 hours per day. As for diet as a puppy, we noticed that she would get it when she’d eat canned food, especially Nutro’s.  We switched her exclusively to Nutro’s crumbles, but 2-3 months later, it came back again regardless.  Now, we’ve switched her to Purina adult, and she did fine for about 2 months, and now she’s been showing pus about 1/2 weeks with exacerbations and remissions. When we put her on AB’s under the Vet’s orders, she would complete her intake of doses, but would get worse throughout, and then would get about 10 times worse when she got off the AB’s at the end of her treatment.  She’s been through erythromycin, tetracycline, and one other one (that escapes me right now).  When we got her laboratory results the first time, the vet said they were inconclusive.  After about $500 in bills, I’m kinda fed-up with that vet, but I guess he’s got to get paid for what he does..or doesn’t. I think I’ll try another vet and see about your other ideas. Thanks! Jay Hafner & Ripley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> assuming that 3 is the case, there are a few issues to think about. How > often does your dog get walked/relieve herself? If she is "holding it" too > much, this might be aiding irritation and infection. What food is she on? > A high quality dog food may help. Does she have constant access to water? > If you are reducing her water intake to reduce her walks, this might stop > her from "flushing" her system regularly and thoroughly enough. Does she > get sugary treats? etc. > Has your vet taken a urine sample to check for crystals? If that is the > underlying cause of the infection, there are dietary and other steps to > take (the vet I used to work for would sometimes give dogs a cortizone > shot just for the side effects of getting them to drink tons of water to > flush themselves out, but there is probably a less extreme method of > getting the same result.) or if the urine is sugary, that would point > to other possible steps. > last but certainly not least, do not give your dog any human medications, > including herbals, without consulting a veterinary professional first. > — >   The Big Kahuna Burger                     Alt.atheist # 1037 >                 ….will work for Chick tracts….

– —— Jay A. Hafner

Response:

No, I haven’t tried that Mark.  Maybe because I’m not a specialist DVM in vetrinary orthopedic manipulation. Thanks for the help and caring though. > Spinal manipulation didn’t work?  Surely the infection > is only a symptom of an underlying subluxation. > Cure that, and you cure the animal.  :-)

– —— Jay A. Hafner

Response:

Jay, is it possible that your dog might have antibiotic-resistant infections?  I know that can happen with humans (it’s happened to me, ugh) so perhaps that can be the case with dogs, as well.  Did the vet do a lab culture to determine what organism or organisms was/were causing the infection, and to make sure the antibiotic prescribed would work? Also, in humans, at least, kidney stones or some other abnormality (blockage) in the urinary tract can lead to repeated infections.  Finally, I read one study (I don’t know if I could ever find it again) that pointed out that some germs were playing a nasty trick – they would hide out in the cells of the bladder, where antibiotics could not reach (although there are tissue-penetrating antibiotics used for prostate troubles, I understand) and then, when the antibiotics were gone, they’d pop back out again and start multiplying.  I never would have thought a germ could be that smart, but the study didn’t seem like a joke, it seemed real, from what I could tell.  Recurrent bladder infections are no fun for humans, and so I’m sure are also no fun for any other animals, and can be serious if left untreated. I hope your dog gets better and doesn’t get any more of those awful UTI’s. Love, Leora – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My dog, a german shorthaired pointer, gets regular bladder infections.  SO far, > they have not responded at all to the Vet’s numerous antibiotics.  I’ve also > tried cranberry juice, but she doesn’t seem to get any relief from that either, > although it’s hard to get her to drink much at one time. > I’m no drug specialist, so could someone tell me what the typical first-line > drug treatment for a bladder infection? > jay

Response:

>I’m no drug specialist, so could someone tell me what the typical first-line >drug treatment for a bladder infection?

Spinal manipulation didn’t work?  Surely the infection is only a symptom of an underlying subluxation. Cure that, and you cure the animal.  :-)

Response:

> I’ve also >tried cranberry juice, but she doesn’t seem to get any relief from that >either, >although it’s hard to get her to drink much at one time.

HOw about Cranberry pills? HIding them in something the dog loves to "wolf down"? (We use a tad of Velveeta wrapped around an antibiotic when needed). Jacque

Response:

: My dog, a german shorthaired pointer, gets regular bladder infections.  SO far, : they have not responded at all to the Vet’s numerous antibiotics.  I’ve also : tried cranberry juice, but she doesn’t seem to get any relief from that either, : although it’s hard to get her to drink much at one time. : I’m no drug specialist, so could someone tell me what the typical first-line : drug treatment for a bladder infection? the first line treatment is antibiotics. If you give them on a consistent schedule, and give them long enough to fully elliminate the infection, that treatment is usually effective. however, since the infection is recurrent, it seems that either 1) the antibiotic treatment is not being properly perscribed, 2) the perscription is not being properly administered, or 3) there is another underlying problem which is causing regular new/recurrant infections. assuming that 3 is the case, there are a few issues to think about. How often does your dog get walked/relieve herself? If she is "holding it" too much, this might be aiding irritation and infection. What food is she on? A high quality dog food may help. Does she have constant access to water? If you are reducing her water intake to reduce her walks, this might stop her from "flushing" her system regularly and thoroughly enough. Does she get sugary treats? etc. Has your vet taken a urine sample to check for crystals? If that is the underlying cause of the infection, there are dietary and other steps to take (the vet I used to work for would sometimes give dogs a cortizone shot just for the side effects of getting them to drink tons of water to flush themselves out, but there is probably a less extreme method of getting the same result.) or if the urine is sugary, that would point to other possible steps. last but certainly not least, do not give your dog any human medications, including herbals, without consulting a veterinary professional first. —   The Big Kahuna Burger                     Alt.atheist # 1037                 ….will work for Chick tracts….

Response:

My dog, a german shorthaired pointer, gets regular bladder infections.  SO far, they have not responded at all to the Vet’s numerous antibiotics.  I’ve also tried cranberry juice, but she doesn’t seem to get any relief from that either, although it’s hard to get her to drink much at one time. I’m no drug specialist, so could someone tell me what the typical first-line drug treatment for a bladder infection? jay

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