Chiropractic Healthiness

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This topic is getting really old and getting nowhere. >>> I have only been checking out this site for a few days and at the >>> >risk >>> of letting myself in for some very angry remarks from you, I was >>> wondering why you seem so venemous in your answers to people and why >>> you seem to fear so greatly exploring any ideas other than your own. >>Because I’m angry about the way "natural medicine" is being promoted >THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ON AN ALTERNATIVE HEALTH NEWSGROUP!!!! > Oh, are we going to have this silly debate again? > Tell me, just what is supposed to happen on this newsgroup?  Are we > all going to be little Disney characters, blithely accepting > everyone’s ideas and recommendations as equally valid, no matter how > stupid, dangerous, or preposterous some of them might be? > Are we allowed to have arguments?  Can anyone play, or are you going > to restrict it to the true believers? > I don’t think Aaron Fox is terribly effective on this group because > he’s too angry and his posts are too long.  But to suggest that he > shouldn’t be posting here goes way too far. > I think one of the problems here is the "so-called Quackwatchers" come >here to try and dispell some alternative health care as "experts" >because they either: >1.  have the MD (or similar) behind their name AND at the same time do >not believe in alternatives. >2.  Have some type of formal post high school education and have to >argue EVERYTHING!! >3. Just bored with nothing positive to say about anything. > But how common is that?  Not very.  If we analyzed the traffic on this > group (tossing out the commercial dreck, which must be 25% on a bad > day), I think you’d find very few posts that meet the above > definitions. >and it sometimes falls on deaf ears, but DAMN, I am going to get my >point across OVER & OVER again. > There is some of that.  But not as much as you seem to imply. >Many people are here to get an ALTERNATIVE to health from traditional >medicine and frankly are not interested in the "traditional" way.  If >they were interested in traditional medicine, they would be on sci.med. >newsgroup.. > But, that begs the question of what can be said about alternative > health.  Are we allowed to question modalities?  Testimonials do not > mean a lot.  Maybe we can’t do double-blind tests of everything, but > I’m frankly skeptical of a lot of alternative stuff and I want to know > why I should believe in it. >For those who are into the "QUACKWATCH" type stuff, WE HEARD YOU!!! >NOW YOU CAN GO AWAY!!! > Why?  The people pushing the potentially quacky stuff won’t.  And new > readers arrive here all the time.  Maybe you’re tired of hearing some > of the stuff, and frankly, I am too, but that’s the way it goes. >      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. >      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*." >                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

You seem to just heckle alternative medicine David.  I haven’t detected any interest at all in any alternatives.  You just push the orthodox (drug mainly) medicine and rubbish alternative medicine.  You push vaccines, drugs, surgery, and rubbish the anti-vaccine view which is true alternative medicine—I never meet any alternative practitioner who believes in vaccines (UK).  You rubbish chelation even, and so on. I don’t mind you around, you are better than an out and out drug zealot like aaron but don’t try to kid me you are anything other than a Steve Harris—100% orthodox. You have just been winding up the chiropractors, and you do the same to homeopathy, herbs etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if you belonged to one of the quackbuster groups which are just fronts for the medical industry.  If you say they aren’t then you prove my point. John

Response:

Guess what they do at good old Columbia University.  Yes, chemotherapy trials: Conventional Adjuvant Chemotherapy Versus High Dose Chemotherapy and Autologous Bone Marrow Transplantation or Stem Cell Transplantation as Adjuvant Intensification Therapy Following Conventional Adjuvant Chemotherapy in Patients with Stage II and III Breast Cancer at High Risk of Recurrence. Could go some way to explain aarons opposition to alternative medicine, and his quack mentality. John

Response:

>> Traditional medicine is not allopathic/modern medicine; traditional/folk > medicine is that vast store of  knowledge of medicinal herbs and > therapeutic foods passed down from our ancient mothers, grandmothers, > and great-grandmothers, orally from generation to generation and across > cultural bounderies.

My great grandmother would have *told* me to go to the doctor and get a shot or a pill.  That’s ‘traditional’ according to your definition.

*snipped long lecture on semantics and some snide remarks to Skyfarmer* >In other words, although you try to sound smart, you succeed in displaying >profound ignorance.  Such ignorance is probably a psychological defense >mechanism against the challenge of rapid change and progress, which can >feel disorienting to humans who are biologically evolved for much slower >rates of change.  This is my take on the bulk of "alternative" and >"traditional" medicine discourse.  It’s a fear reaction to the unknown >world we are creating for ourselves, even when that world looks like a >golden age of human evolution in some respects, what with the internet and >long life spans and plenty of food and all that other techno-scientific >rubbish.

>Aaron A. Fox >Assistant Professor of Music (Ethnomusicology) >Columbia University > web: http://roar.music.columbia.edu/~cecenter/afindex.html

I think you’re right about the above..Some people feel a bit threatened by so much happening at such a rapid pace. Not sure what you mean by the comment "humans who are biologically evolved for much slower rates of change"  but ..it appears you may speaking of human as an individual instead of as a species. As a species that comment would be moot considering humans have accomplished that which you say they are not evolved to do. (whew*getting "disoriented" here..better go brew a cup of herbal tea) As a species we need mental/physical diversity to ensure thrifty survival. Someone once said "it takes all kinds". That wasn’t you, was it Aaron?<g> Carole

Response:

<SNIPPED> >In other words, although you try to sound smart, you succeed in

displaying profound ignorance.  Such ignorance is probably a psychological defense mechanism against the challenge of rapid change and progress, which can feel disorienting to humans who are biologically evolved for much slower rates of change.   ><SNIPPED> >Aaron Fox >Aaron A. Fox >Assistant Professor of Music (Ethnomusicology) >Columbia University >    web: http://roar.music.columbia.edu/~cecenter/afindex.html

Aaron, might the above paragraph be applied to yourself as well? Judy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

writes: Skyfarmer, Did not delete your article in case someone missed it. Totally excellent article!!!  :) Judy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Traditional medicine is not allopathic/modern medicine; traditional/folk >medicine is that vast store of  knowledge of medicinal herbs and >therapeutic foods passed down from our ancient mothers, grandmothers, >and great-grandmothers, orally from generation to generation and across >cultural bounderies. (Dictionary definition of tradition: the handing >down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example >from one generation to another without written instruction.) >Hippocrates,  who’s known as the father of medicine(in the literature >aspect), practiced traditional herbal/natural medicine.  He preserved >the ancient healing tradition through his literature and by formulating >a code of conduct for physicians/healers to follow. The first part of >the Hippocratic oath: >FIRST DO NO HARM. ( Read the Physician’s Desk Reference and look at all >pharmaceutical’s side effects.) >Up until about 1490 AD, the use of herbs was the culturally accepted >form of healing in almost every culture on Earth. >It was about five hundred years ago when the first deviation from >Hippocrates’ system of herbal tradition occurred.  A physician broke the >oath and turned away from herbal medicine and began prescribing >elemental minerals, believing they could purify the body.   >Mercury or quicksilver(also known as Quack Salber) was one of these >elemental (alloy;allopathic) minerals which was widely prescribed . >Once people realized that they were actually being poisoned they took >the name of the "medicine" and applied it to these misdirected >physicians, and called them quacks.  Modern medicine was born and >rapidly began to evolve. >How could this happen?  Let’s imagine the tremendous amount of respect >healers had in societies and communities.  People freely gave them their >trust based on hundreds of years of proven success.  A few bad apples >began spoiling the whole barrel by putting profits before honoring and >maintaining that trust. Ever since we (as a population) lost the >knowledge of traditional herbal medicine, we are literally at the mercy >of the modern medical community because of our ignorance.   >Our economy is based on the laws of supply and demand.  If there is a >huge demand by ill and ill-informed people for the supply of "healing" >then the supply side dictates the cost and what will be available. >The population demands cures, it demands progress, it demands that >something be done, even if it is all for appearance. But tradition has >gotten buried under all the technology, and it is in that tradition >which contains the essence of healing; that essence was given to us by >God to share with everyone. >It’s true that technology has given us conveniences, even when it comes >to taking our herbal medicines and nutritional supplements.  But even >without technology, herbal medicine would still be effective, just not >as convenient.  Modern medicine relies on technology to appear >effective. >More often than not, people are returning to alternative/traditional >medicine (herbal/homeopathic/chiropractic, etc.) because allopathic >doctors have given them  a dismal prognosis, or have told them that >"we’ve done all that we can do"; or maybe this…  " it’s all in your >head"; or one of many other numerous  responses synonymous to shrugging >shoulders. We have been turned away without answers to our questions, >and that’s why we are here, to help each other restore the ancient >knowledge of tradional medicine so we may learn our own answers. >Understand that the people of Earth have been given everything needed >for good health, but we have created many inventions during the >industrial/technological age that have contributed to the deterioration >of our physical, mental and spiritual integrity.     >The return to natural, traditional medicine is a movement which was >initiated by our discontent with modern medicine and our desire to live >a healthy life as God intended.This movement is gaining momentum like >Joshua’s army circling around the walls of Jericho.   It’s not >surprising the quack-busters feel threatened; they hear our trumpets >blowing.  And we will not stop ’til the walls fall down. >The truth goes marching on….. >Skyfarmer >knowledge is empowerment! >http://www.naturalmom.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Traditional medicine is not allopathic/modern medicine; traditional/folk > medicine is that vast store of  knowledge of medicinal herbs and > therapeutic foods passed down from our ancient mothers, grandmothers, > and great-grandmothers, orally from generation to generation and across > cultural bounderies. (Dictionary definition of tradition: the handing > down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example > from one generation to another without written instruction.) > That is not a current social scientific definition of tradition. That is a > definition of "oral" tradition.  Cultures which rely on oral tradition are > called "pr-literate." People who rely only on oral tradition in literate > societies are called "illiterate."

There is still an oral tradition of some knowledge in literate societies, for example the enneagram has an oral method of teaching still in use.   I would have thought this was the way with esoteric or mystical knowledge the world over.  Although the enneagram is now out in the open and written.   Some knowledge is beyond the form of words so can never be written down, except in a token way like maps. As for oral taught medicine.  This is the traditional way of teaching crafts, and you see this in many trades, furniture making and so on. The modern "scientific" medical group like to make out they are superior to the old style medicine man because they have fancy labs, techniucal terms, extensive written textbooks, reams of research, and so on.  At the end of the day it doesn’t account for much if you can’t produce any results to match an oral taught healer or herbalist.  Modern medicine thrives on its PR. >Science is based on  a written > tradition, although it has some oral traditions of its own.  It is very > amusing, however, to see a rabid defense of orality written and posted on > a computer newsgroup. > Your naive comments show extreme ignorance of the value of literacy and > the limitations of oral tradition, no matter how beautiful or profound > many oral traditions may be within their limited domain.

The most spiritual people on the planet are the central Australian Aboriganies with an oral tradition.  The most valuable knowledge is only taugh orally, and the written word, while useful gives reign to self-importance, as you demonstrate.  And self-importance is mans worst enemy giving him delusions of importance and sophistication when he is only an ant on a tiny anthill with less intelligence than a Dolphin. The ability to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> store and transmit learned concepts is the essence of the concept of > "culture" in social theory, where "culture" is viewed as the biological > capacity (profoundly dependent on our biological linguistic faculty) which > has enabled humans to evolve in self-directed ways, at an exponentially > more rapid pace than would have happened in the absence of culture and > language in general.  Literacy is a further extension of the same capacity > for such "self-directed" evolution which the most rudimentary oral culture > also represents.  It is not a fundamentally distinct phenomenon (which is > why literate societies continue to sustain oral traditions as vital > components of their total cultural systems.)  No matter what you say,  the > fact that you can (presumably) read and write and use a computer reflects > your dependence on — and support for — literate culture.  Science is in > many ways a highly refined form of literacy, emergent after centuries of > development of literacy in general (arguably literacy can be traced back > to prehistoric cave art).  This basic contradiction in your thinking > obviates the rest of your argument, based as it is on the faulty premise > that orality is culturally superior to literacy as a means of storing and > transmitting accumulated knowledge. If you believed your own mistaken > ideas, you would reject the use of a computer, and about 90% of the rest > of your daily activity as well if you are a member of a typical > industrial, literate, scientific society.

Thanks for demonstrating the drawback in the written word. Precis into one line please. > In other words, although you try to sound smart, you succeed in displaying > profound ignorance.  Such ignorance is probably a psychological defense > mechanism against the challenge of rapid change and progress, which can > feel disorienting to humans who are biologically evolved for much slower > rates of change.  This is my take on the bulk of "alternative" and > "traditional" medicine discourse.  It’s a fear reaction to the unknown > world we are creating for ourselves, even when that world looks like a > golden age of human evolution in some respects, what with the internet and > long life spans and plenty of food and all that other techno-scientific > rubbish.

Seem to have summed yourself up there.  You can’t take my written word so you have to block it out from your computer.  You don’t want to know that your "scientific" medicine nirvana is just a load of doo doo, a pseudo-scientific cult that talks down to the rest of us in a desperate attempt to keep us "bottom-dog", submissive and not daring to ask any pertinet questions, like "when are you going to cure any diseases?". And an attempt to keep the truth of your failure from yourself.  Worked so far. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Aaron Fox > Aaron A. Fox > Assistant Professor of Music (Ethnomusicology) > Columbia University >         web: http://roar.music.columbia.edu/~cecenter/afindex.html

Response:

Traditional medicine is not allopathic/modern medicine; traditional/folk medicine is that vast store of  knowledge of medicinal herbs and therapeutic foods passed down from our ancient mothers, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers, orally from generation to generation and across cultural bounderies. (Dictionary definition of tradition: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction.) Hippocrates,  who’s known as the father of medicine(in the literature aspect), practiced traditional herbal/natural medicine.  He preserved the ancient healing tradition through his literature and by formulating a code of conduct for physicians/healers to follow. The first part of the Hippocratic oath: FIRST DO NO HARM. ( Read the Physician’s Desk Reference and look at all pharmaceutical’s side effects.) Up until about 1490 AD, the use of herbs was the culturally accepted form of healing in almost every culture on Earth. It was about five hundred years ago when the first deviation from Hippocrates’ system of herbal tradition occurred.  A physician broke the oath and turned away from herbal medicine and began prescribing elemental minerals, believing they could purify the body.   Mercury or quicksilver(also known as Quack Salber) was one of these elemental (alloy;allopathic) minerals which was widely prescribed . Once people realized that they were actually being poisoned they took the name of the "medicine" and applied it to these misdirected physicians, and called them quacks.  Modern medicine was born and rapidly began to evolve. How could this happen?  Let’s imagine the tremendous amount of respect healers had in societies and communities.  People freely gave them their trust based on hundreds of years of proven success.  A few bad apples began spoiling the whole barrel by putting profits before honoring and maintaining that trust. Ever since we (as a population) lost the knowledge of traditional herbal medicine, we are literally at the mercy of the modern medical community because of our ignorance.   Our economy is based on the laws of supply and demand.  If there is a huge demand by ill and ill-informed people for the supply of "healing" then the supply side dictates the cost and what will be available. The population demands cures, it demands progress, it demands that something be done, even if it is all for appearance. But tradition has gotten buried under all the technology, and it is in that tradition which contains the essence of healing; that essence was given to us by God to share with everyone. It’s true that technology has given us conveniences, even when it comes to taking our herbal medicines and nutritional supplements.  But even without technology, herbal medicine would still be effective, just not as convenient.  Modern medicine relies on technology to appear effective. More often than not, people are returning to alternative/traditional medicine (herbal/homeopathic/chiropractic, etc.) because allopathic doctors have given them  a dismal prognosis, or have told them that "we’ve done all that we can do"; or maybe this…  " it’s all in your head"; or one of many other numerous  responses synonymous to shrugging shoulders. We have been turned away without answers to our questions, and that’s why we are here, to help each other restore the ancient knowledge of tradional medicine so we may learn our own answers. Understand that the people of Earth have been given everything needed for good health, but we have created many inventions during the industrial/technological age that have contributed to the deterioration of our physical, mental and spiritual integrity.     The return to natural, traditional medicine is a movement which was initiated by our discontent with modern medicine and our desire to live a healthy life as God intended.This movement is gaining momentum like Joshua’s army circling around the walls of Jericho.   It’s not surprising the quack-busters feel threatened; they hear our trumpets blowing.  And we will not stop ’til the walls fall down. The truth goes marching on….. Skyfarmer knowledge is empowerment! http://www.naturalmom.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>You push >>vaccines, drugs, surgery, and rubbish the anti-vaccine view which is >>true alternative medicine >John, just wanted you to know that I read the BEFORE and AFTER vaccine >description of measles in the textbooks, and thought it was >wonderful.   >Why?  All it proved was that if you dig around in enough old and new >medical texts, you can find descriptions of measles that differ >somewhat in their discussions of side-effects. >In particular, if you dig out a pre-measles-vaccine reference, you’ll >probably find fewer references to side effects.  Why not?  After all, >no point emphasizing it when you can’t do anything about it anyway in >terms of prevention.

"no point emphasizing it when you can’t do anything about it anyway in terms of prevention." The stuff you say is simple amazing! How do you come up with this stuff? >It’s possible that the side-effects are now mentioned more often, >since although they are rare, they can be serious, and if you >vaccinate, you will typically avoid them altogether.

Huh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >     These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. >     "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*." >                       — my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>You push >>vaccines, drugs, surgery, and rubbish the anti-vaccine view which is >>true alternative medicine >John, just wanted you to know that I read the BEFORE and AFTER vaccine >description of measles in the textbooks, and thought it was >wonderful. > Why?  All it proved was that if you dig around in enough old and new > medical texts, you can find descriptions of measles that differ > somewhat in their discussions of side-effects. > In particular, if you dig out a pre-measles-vaccine reference, you’ll > probably find fewer references to side effects.  Why not?  After all, > no point emphasizing it when you can’t do anything about it anyway in > terms of prevention. > It’s possible that the side-effects are now mentioned more often, > since although they are rare, they can be serious, and if you > vaccinate, you will typically avoid them altogether.

Can’t keep a good vaccine zealot down with the truth.  Mr Alternative. LOL.  Dig around in old texts?  I have the same for mumps & rubella, and no doubt it is the same for whooping cough, and now chickenpox.   Usual old vaccine ploys. You like alternative medicine as long as you can keep your orthodox stuff too and TOP DOG it over alternative medicine, like those wimpy complementary crowd.   Guess you haven’t figured out alternative means just that—an alternative.   Too simple?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. >      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*." >                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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>>You push >vaccines, drugs, surgery, and rubbish the anti-vaccine view which is >true alternative medicine >John, just wanted you to know that I read the BEFORE and AFTER vaccine >description of measles in the textbooks, and thought it was >wonderful.  

Why?  All it proved was that if you dig around in enough old and new medical texts, you can find descriptions of measles that differ somewhat in their discussions of side-effects. In particular, if you dig out a pre-measles-vaccine reference, you’ll probably find fewer references to side effects.  Why not?  After all, no point emphasizing it when you can’t do anything about it anyway in terms of prevention. It’s possible that the side-effects are now mentioned more often, since although they are rare, they can be serious, and if you vaccinate, you will typically avoid them altogether.      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*."                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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Steven B. Harris wrote about measles problems: [snip] > It’s not always possible to tell in > advance who will get these problems.

Most interesting—is it *sometimes* possible to tell?  Could a simple screening test be devised that would advise all of their risk?  If so, the vaccinate/don’t vaccinate controversy could be relieved somewhat by simply informing people of their specific danger instead of trying to mass inoculate everyone. Regards, Rex Harrill

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [nothing from my post quoted by Scudamore; typical] >Yeah yeah, you haven’t the faintest clue about alternative medicine, > Hahahahaha. >which you wouldn’t being an orthodox guy.   And thank you so much for >saving us simpletons from herb and nutrient hawkers. > I didn’t do it for you, pinhead, I did it for me and the other readers > who are here for the articles, not the ads.

This pinhead can see hawkers a mile off so you, big head, should see them, but I suppose you have to appear to be doing something useful.   > I was quite confident you wouldn’t be able to write any sort of > substantive rebuttal to my article.  Thank you for so succinctly > proving that I was correct.

Don’t flatter yourself, but I suppose someone has to now and then. Was that an article?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. >      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*." >                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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Amen! John, Just a supportive note to add:   Traditional medicine is not allopathic medicine; traditional medicine is that vast store of  knowledge of medicinal herbs and foods passed down from our mothers, grandmothers, great-grandmothers, orally from generation to generation.  It wasn’t until a man got the idea that they could profit from our gifts from God, that quacks started selling snake oils (primitive pharmaceuticals) to those ignorant and gullible enough to buy them.  And look what manifested from that mentality! The real quacks are those pushing the poisons with  long lists of side effects in small print, which have been manufactured and marketed by PROFIT DRIVEN pharmaceutical companies.  Just say no to drugs……and those who prescribe them. A reminder of the first part of the Hippocratic oath , and it goes: FIRST DO NO HARM. Hippocrates,  who’s known as the father of medicine, used  herbal/natural medicine. ( Read the Physician’s Desk Reference and look at all pharmaceutical’s side effects.) Another part of the oath said something to the effect of not denying health care to anyone.  Well, I for one refuse medical health care ( been there, worked there, done that), and feel that people, like myself,  have turned away from allopathic medicine because they have not seen results they expect for the amount of money the medical establishment is demanding. More often than not, people turn back to traditional medicine (herbal/homeopathic/chiropractic, etc.), because the allopathic doctors have given them three months to live, or have told them that "we’ve done all that we can do", or this one " it’s all in your head" and numerous others  responses synonymous to shrugging shoulders. The return to natural medicine, the medicine God has given us to heal ourselves in its unadulterated state (for whatever God created is perfect, yes?), is a movement that has been initiated by our discontent with modern medicine.  It’s gaining momentum like Joshua’s army circling around the walls of Jericho.   And it’s not surprising the quack-busters feel threatened; they hear our trumpets blowing.  And we will not stop ’til the walls fall down. The truth goes marching on. Skyfarmer knowledge is empowerment! http://www.naturalmom.com

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[nothing from my post quoted by Scudamore; typical] >Yeah yeah, you haven’t the faintest clue about alternative medicine,

Hahahahaha. >which you wouldn’t being an orthodox guy.   And thank you so much for >saving us simpletons from herb and nutrient hawkers.

I didn’t do it for you, pinhead, I did it for me and the other readers who are here for the articles, not the ads. I was quite confident you wouldn’t be able to write any sort of substantive rebuttal to my article.  Thank you for so succinctly proving that I was correct.      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*."                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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Yeah yeah, you haven’t the faintest clue about alternative medicine, which you wouldn’t being an orthodox guy.   And thank you so much for saving us simpletons from herb and nutrient hawkers.

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>You seem to just heckle alternative medicine David.  

No, but I heckle you quite often.  Someone really needs to counter the reams of dreck you post.  You’re a fine example of the dangers of technology — scanners getting into the hands of the wrong people. >I haven’t detected any interest at all in any alternatives.

Because you haven’t wanted to.  I’ve written about the alternatives that I’ve tried, and the ones I use regularly.  You just block all that out because you’ve decided I’m a Bad Guy.   You’ve decided I’m a Bad Guy because, unlike you, I don’t have the mindset that says "all alternative therapies are good, all conventional medicine is bad and useless except antibiotics, which are overused."  I think that’s a pretty good summary of your views; you’ve said, more or less, that there is no alternative therapy that you’ll condemn.   I could show up here under a bogus identity claiming some miraculous new cure from rubbing dogshit into wounds, with a bunch of fabricated testimonials and a nice web site, and you’d be extolling the virtues of this to the skies within a month. >You just push the orthodox (drug mainly) medicine and rubbish >alternative medicine.

Nope, I ‘rubbish’ (love that term) dubious claims and other bogosities.  I also do what I can to keep advertising off this group. Do you?  I doubt it. >You push vaccines, drugs, surgery,

They all have their place. >and rubbish the anti-vaccine view

Quite rightly, too, since most of what is posted about it is crap. >which is true alternative medicine

Well, golly-gee, John-boy, I don’t recall any occasion when we named you Lord High Arbiter of what is True Alternative Medicine and what isn’t.  I also see no reason why the users of alternative approaches have to exist in some sort of Alternative Purity where they never touch anything conventional.  Why should they? Christ, you’d probably have been in favor of using antibiotics against ulcers 10 years ago, when it was "alternative".  Now it’s mainstream, so I bet you’re against it. >—I never meet any alternative practitioner >who believes in vaccines (UK).

I’m sure you’ve arranged your life to ensure that, too.  I don’t tend to meet any Eskimoes in my daily life, either, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.  One of the most cogent critiques of the anti-vac people I’ve seen on this newsgroup was written by a chiropractor. You, I’m sure, will want to take up your cross and drive him from the temple of the Alternative True Believers. >You rubbish chelation even, and so on.

Why not?  Who says that just because you stick a label of "alternative" on something, it automatically becomes good and wonderful? >I don’t mind you around, you are better than an out and out drug zealot >like aaron but don’t try to kid me you are anything other than a Steve >Harris—100% orthodox.

Yeah, well, fuck you, John-boy.  I’ve been doing chi quong longer than this newsgroup has existed.  Just as one example. >You have just been winding up the chiropractors, and you do the same to >homeopathy, herbs etc.

Wrongo.  Chiros have their place, mostly on the back and environs. Herbs have their place too.  You’re right about the homeopaths — I think that’s worthless, but I don’t insist that anyone accept a view just because *I* hold it.  Unlike you. >I wouldn’t be surprised if you belonged to one of the quackbuster groups >which are just fronts for the medical industry.  If you say they aren’t >then you prove my point.

I don’t know whether they are or not.  Meanwhile, what *is* your point?  That you’re a paranoid, credulous fool?      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*."                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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>You push >vaccines, drugs, surgery, and rubbish the anti-vaccine view which is >true alternative medicine

John, just wanted you to know that I read the BEFORE and AFTER vaccine description of measles in the textbooks, and thought it was wonderful.  I have an open mind on this subject, but I think your long descriptive post on this was very telling.  I’d like some medical doctor opinions on this– Did measles somehow become more "dangerous" after vaccines were developed, or is this just a subtle way to convince everyone to vaccinate?  BL

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1204) writes: >You push >vaccines, drugs, surgery, and rubbish the anti-vaccine view which is >true alternative medicine >John, just wanted you to know that I read the BEFORE and AFTER vaccine >description of measles in the textbooks, and thought it was wonderful.  I have >an open mind on this subject, but I think your long descriptive post on this >was very telling.  I’d like some medical doctor opinions on this– Did measles >somehow become more "dangerous" after vaccines were developed, or is this just >a subtle way to convince everyone to vaccinate?  BL

   Measles is usually just a nuisance.  In some people, however, it causes encephalitis (brain infection) or pneumonia, and can be extremely debilitating, or fatal.  It’s not always possible to tell in advance who will get these problems.                                     Steve Harris, M.D.

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>This topic is getting really old and getting nowhere.   >> I have only been checking out this site for a few days and at the >> >risk >> of letting myself in for some very angry remarks from you, I was >> wondering why you seem so venemous in your answers to people and why >> you seem to fear so greatly exploring any ideas other than your own. >Because I’m angry about the way "natural medicine" is being promoted >THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ON AN ALTERNATIVE HEALTH NEWSGROUP!!!!

Oh, are we going to have this silly debate again?   Tell me, just what is supposed to happen on this newsgroup?  Are we all going to be little Disney characters, blithely accepting everyone’s ideas and recommendations as equally valid, no matter how stupid, dangerous, or preposterous some of them might be? Are we allowed to have arguments?  Can anyone play, or are you going to restrict it to the true believers? I don’t think Aaron Fox is terribly effective on this group because he’s too angry and his posts are too long.  But to suggest that he shouldn’t be posting here goes way too far. > I think one of the problems here is the "so-called Quackwatchers" come >here to try and dispell some alternative health care as "experts" >because they either: >1.  have the MD (or similar) behind their name AND at the same time do >not believe in alternatives.   >2.  Have some type of formal post high school education and have to >argue EVERYTHING!! >3. Just bored with nothing positive to say about anything.

But how common is that?  Not very.  If we analyzed the traffic on this group (tossing out the commercial dreck, which must be 25% on a bad day), I think you’d find very few posts that meet the above definitions. >and it sometimes falls on deaf ears, but DAMN, I am going to get my >point across OVER & OVER again.

There is some of that.  But not as much as you seem to imply. >Many people are here to get an ALTERNATIVE to health from traditional >medicine and frankly are not interested in the "traditional" way.  If >they were interested in traditional medicine, they would be on sci.med. >newsgroup..  

But, that begs the question of what can be said about alternative health.  Are we allowed to question modalities?  Testimonials do not mean a lot.  Maybe we can’t do double-blind tests of everything, but I’m frankly skeptical of a lot of alternative stuff and I want to know why I should believe in it. >For those who are into the "QUACKWATCH" type stuff, WE HEARD YOU!!! >NOW YOU CAN GO AWAY!!!

Why?  The people pushing the potentially quacky stuff won’t.  And new readers arrive here all the time.  Maybe you’re tired of hearing some of the stuff, and frankly, I am too, but that’s the way it goes.      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "I talk to America every day — and America is *stupid*."                        – my girlfriend, the customer service rep

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check your resources, Aaron, about Linus Pauling’s death.  He died well into his 90’s and he took 18.000 grams of Vit. C daily.  He was a pioneer in his field and a great man.  Have you gone into some of the orthomolecular sites in the www?  They are really interesting.  I take it you must be against nutrients helping diseases.  Mega doses of nutrients brought me out of post-partum depression over 25 years ago. I spoke before the Connecticut legislature to get mega-vitamin therapy put into the state hospitals.  Nothing happened.  You have no idea what the physicians back in the 60’s were up against.  One doctor was treating and helping patients with this therapy, and the hospital and others he was in practice with told him they would take away his residency,etc. so he wrote to us that he knew and saw that it worked, but he had to make a living! Only a sprecial breed of doctor could rise upagainst all that!  GOD BLESS THEM1 Judith

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Orthomolecular medicine is complete b.s. There is not a shred of proof >that it cures or alleviates any known human disease.  I don’t trust >websites put up by quack doctors.  I trust the peer reviewed medical >literature, some of the findings of which can be reviewed on the web (for >example, at the quackwatch site). > helping diseases.  Mega doses of nutrients brought me out of post-partum > depression over 25 years ago. I spoke before the Connecticut >legislature to get > mega-vitamin therapy put into the state hospitals.  Nothing happened.  You have >Post-partum depression is by definition a self-limiting condition.  A >classic fallacy of "natural medicine" is the claim that a quack remedy >taken concurrently with a natural healing process is somehow

responsible for that healing process.  I have nothing against nutrition, but our >nutritional needs are easily met by eating a good balanced diet. >(Have you seen the recent research showing megadoses of certain

vitamins >can be toxic, or that beta-carotene taken as supplements is not >nearly as effective at reducing   cancer risk  whereas when it is taken >via the diet it is highly effective?) >AF

I have only been checking out this site for a few days and at the risk of letting myself in for some very angry remarks from you, I was wondering why you seem so venemous in your answers to people and why you seem to fear so greatly exploring any ideas other than your own.     Judy

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This topic is getting really old and getting nowhere.   > I have only been checking out this site for a few days and at the risk > of letting myself in for some very angry remarks from you, I was > wondering why you seem so venemous in your answers to people and why > you seem to fear so greatly exploring any ideas other than your own. >     Judy >Because I’m angry about the way "natural medicine" is being promoted

THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ON AN ALTERNATIVE HEALTH NEWSGROUP!!!!  I think one of the problems here is the "so-called Quackwatchers" come here to try and dispell some alternative health care as "experts" because they either: 1.  have the MD (or similar) behind their name AND at the same time do not believe in alternatives.   2.  Have some type of formal post high school education and have to argue EVERYTHING!! 3. Just bored with nothing positive to say about anything. and it sometimes falls on deaf ears, but DAMN, I am going to get my point across OVER & OVER again. Many people are here to get an ALTERNATIVE to health from traditional medicine and frankly are not interested in the "traditional" way.  If they were interested in traditional medicine, they would be on sci.med. newsgroup..   I know both sides should be considered, so those who are against some alternatives can say "I feel this stuff is crap, if you want another side, check out……" and leave it at that.  This is the area for alternative thoughts, perhaps we should create a traditional vs.alternative newsgroup and agree to disagree there.   For those who are into the "QUACKWATCH" type stuff, WE HEARD YOU!!! NOW YOU CAN GO AWAY!!!   You’ll note >that I never use abusive terms (idiot, moron) except when my >correspondents start flinging them at me (a la Scudmore and Agocs).

So, this is the "he did it first" mentality???? <snip>   >Aaron A. Fox >Assistant Professor of Music (Ethnomusicology) >Columbia University >    web: http://roar.music.columbia.edu/~cecenter/afindex.html

Aaron, We heard you now.  I don’t necesarily agree or disagree with you, but frankly if you don’t like the discussions here, leave.  It obviously appears to many that you like the Quackwatch theories, so go there… I guess if you hit the magic number of "anti-alternative" posts here, your quota will be met and you can get a big hug and acceptance to Barett and the rest of Quackwatch folks.  I don’t have all the answers here, but I get the feeling with your "columbia.edu", you feel you do. Can we end this now?

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> check your resources, Aaron, about Linus Pauling’s death.  He died well into > his 90’s and he took 18.000 grams of Vit. C daily.  He was a pioneer in his > field and a great man.  Have you gone into some of the orthomolecular sites in > the www?  They are really interesting.  I take it you must be against nutrients > helping diseases.  Mega doses of nutrients brought me out of post-partum > depression over 25 years ago. I spoke before the Connecticut legislature to get > mega-vitamin therapy put into the state hospitals.  Nothing happened.  You have > no idea what the physicians back in the 60’s were up against.  One doctor was > treating and helping patients with this therapy, and the hospital and others he > was in practice with told him they would take away his residency,etc. so he > wrote to us that he knew and saw that it worked, but he had to make a living! > Only a sprecial breed of doctor could rise upagainst all that!  GOD BLESS THEM1 > Judith

Don’t waste your time with aaron, he is a quack buster or witch hunter. They play medical politics with peoples lives—playing business games—nutrition is competition for his drug market.  Nice to see someone who has benefited from nutritional medicine.  Aaron was asking where they all were, and along comes one.

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