– Self-Defense IS a matter of CHOICE! When women are disarmed, a rapist will never hear – Stop or I’ll shoot!

>have YOU personally ever had Chiropractic care? > Yes.

and how long did you give it to work? >More patients are killed by MD’s than chiropractors. > More patients lives are saved by MD’s than chiropractors.

I know a lot a folks whos lives have been changed by chiropractic, mine being one . A guy (retired cop now) has been going to the chiro since before i met him. I’ve known him since 1982. When I told him I was going to a chiro, his response was "damn , now you know my secret of why I’m stil able to walk. I got several friends who swear by chiros. >I’ll take my chances with chiropractors. > Who will you take your chances with any of the following?:

By chances I meant safety wise:::::: quit reading what you want to read into it…… > 1)  Early stage Malignant melanoma > 2) Insulin dependent diabetes mellitus > 3) Bacterial meningitis > 4) Hodgkin’s Lymphoma > 5) Strep throat > 6) Addison’s Disease

Nobody has ever said chiros cure everything. My chiro FROM DAY ONE has said that if she comes cross anything she can’t treat and she knows there are things out of her ability, she’ll refer me to the proper place (she’s not above working with other meds. I don’t think ANY chiro is…… That’s just what YOU want to read into it. I cross these bridges if and when I get to them…. until then I ‘ll use PREVENTIVE medicine which is a prt of alt med….. > If you answered that you would take your chances with chiropractic > with any of the above  then you likely will end up dead and > chiropractic would have killed them due to an act of omission > (compared to acts of commission). > You see chiropractors cannot successfully treat certain illnesses > which have very effective conventional treatment that can be life > saving.

No body has ever said they did, I know I haven’t! > But if you choose to go with chiropractic because you believe it to be > effective and with fewer side effects then I will defend your right to > make that choice.

thank you and i will defend your right to poison your body with whatever you want to and take the risks with doctors…. Not putting down all drs, Point is there are good and bad drs , just like there are good and bad chiros, auto mechanics, lawyers, cops, plumbers, photographers – etc! > However I will exercise my right of free speech and tell you that I think

you would be foolish to make that choice. And I’ll exercise my freedom of speech  and tell you  that you are a fool for depending on only the traditional meds. But it > is your life (death)

as it is yours…. tell ya what, Rich, You take  traditional med and I take alt helth and we’ll see who lives longer , ok? Damn I shoulda been born politically correct, life would been soooooo much easier

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Yeah Peter, people are dropping like flies from going to the chiropractor, LOL. I dont adjust the cervical spine every visit.  I do recommend that people get chiropractic care much like someone goes to a dentist.  You dont see people not going to a dentist because of the MUCH HIGHER risks associated with that.  I believe that debilitating back pain makes a cavity feel like a walk in the park. — Rissew Chiropractic Center at Birkdale 8600 Sam Furr Rd. Suite 180 Huntersville, NC 28078 704-892-2282 http://www.thechiropractor.net

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> John Badanes > [TEO.]

Wow, i dont know where you got that stuff.  I would leave it up there but it was a novel and too long to scroll through.  I dont have time to answer all that but I will say one thing.  That is not even close to the experience I have had going to chiropractic school. I have been an honor student since high school.  Graduated magna cum laude from Univ. of New Hamshire and went to chiropractic school.  It was the hardest thing I have ever dont.  We didnt learn the "subluxation dogma" that you refer to.   I know the entire human anatomy to a ridiculous degree.  The stress we had to endure to get through school was tremendous. About 1/2 of our class quit or failed by the time we graduated.  You are making judgements about that which you know nothing about.  Visit the NYCC campus in Seneca Falls and walk around and talk to people.  I guarantee you will find a new respect for chiropractic.   Some of the most brilliant people I have met teach at that school and have attended that school.  I must disagree with you vehemently. — Rissew Chiropractic Center at Birkdale 8600 Sam Furr Rd. Suite 180 Huntersville, NC 28078 704-892-2282 http://www.thechiropractor.net

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> Another example of Atlas’ critical thinking disorder, this time comparing > apples with oranges   Next thing you know, he’ll start claiming that his 3.3 > years in DC school equals 4 years of medical school plus 3 years of residency.

Medical school has exactly the same length and number of credit hours as chiropractic school (and believe me chiropractic school is very difficult). — Rissew Chiropractic Center at Birkdale 8600 Sam Furr Rd. Suite 180 Huntersville, NC 28078 704-892-2282 http://www.thechiropractor.net

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<< Organization: RoadRunner – California >> I thought you lived in Hawaii…..

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->have YOU personally ever had Chiropractic care? > Yes. >More patients are killed by MD’s than chiropractors. > More patients lives are saved by MD’s than chiropractors. >I’ll take my chances with chiropractors. > Who will you take your chances with any of the following?: > 1)  Early stage Malignant melanoma > 2) Insulin dependent diabetes mellitus > 3) Bacterial meningitis > 4) Hodgkin’s Lymphoma > 5) Strep throat > 6) Addison’s Disease > If you answered that you would take your chances with chiropractic > with any of the above  then you likely will end up dead and > chiropractic would have killed them due to an act of omission > (compared to acts of commission). > You see chiropractors cannot successfully treat certain illnesses > which have very effective conventional treatment that can be life > saving. >          You also see that AMA cannot successfully treat many conditions,

and so they perform harmful "operations". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> But if you choose to go with chiropractic because you believe it to be > effective and with fewer side effects then I will defend your right to > make that choice. However I will exercise my right of free speech and > tell you that I think you would be foolish to make that choice. But it > is your life (death) > Aloha, > Rich > Respect is something you give in order to get. >               Bernard Malamud

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->x-no-archive:  yes >It couldn’t even fix Jan Drew’s headaches —-  or at least she says " I was >a patient of Diamond Headache Clinic for years" —– suggests a rather >mediocre treatment outcome. >    I was a patient of Speranza Dental Clinic for years.  I guess >they offered mediocre treatment outcomes too. >Atlas

Another example of Atlas’ critical thinking disorder, this time comparing apples with oranges   Next thing you know, he’ll start claiming that his 3.3 years in DC school equals 4 years of medical school plus 3 years of residency.

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Don’t you think the risk should be evaluated by the patient and practitioner? I just saw something on the Discovery Channel about a woman who was in intractable permanent pain after a face lift. That may be a more likely outcome than a stroke after a neck manipulation.  Not to mention the risk of anesthesia.  I mean, so what?  I’m not going to start bashing face lifts because of it.  It is elective surgery and it’s ok with me if someone wants to have it.  When I get my neck manipulated it treats neck stiffness and pain.  I no longer dread turning my neck to back out of the driveway.  That happens to be more important to me than a face lift.  But hey guys, each to his or her own. BL

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>x-no-archive:  yes >>>It couldn’t even fix Jan Drew’s headaches —-  or at least she says " I >was >>>a patient of Diamond Headache Clinic for years" —– suggests a rather >>>mediocre treatment outcome. >>    I was a patient of Speranza Dental Clinic for years.  I guess >>they offered mediocre treatment outcomes too. >Another example of Atlas’ critical thinking disorder, >    Another example of Ilsa’s projection.

No, Kevin, you are the nerd working the projector. >this time comparing >apples with oranges   >    Nope.  Chiropractic care and dental care are VERY similar. >    Ilsa/Andrew knows this – but won’t admit it, because of his >obvious intellectual dishonesty.

You have totally lost it, Atlas.  Dental care and Chiropractic are quite dissimilar.  I wonder if you consider cavities and subluxations to be the same? >Next thing you know, he’ll start claiming that his 3.3 >years in DC school equals 4 years of medical school >    Actually, my chiropractic school was more extensive (in total >number of classroom hours) – than what medical students get.

Only in your imagination, Kevvie.

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> x-no-archive:  yes > I almost forgot.  Here’s a link to one of my webpages which > shows how much education a chiroprator gets vs. an allopathic doctor. > http://www.geocities.com/cbpdoc/Education.html > Chiropractic:  4,485 > Allopathic:  4,248

Well, your figures don’t quite agree with the data published by various other sources, including several chiropractic sources (2,3).  Besides that you really can’t compare hours at one school to hours at another school. "Math" taught at your local community college is substantially less rigorous than "math" taught at MIT.  As you have pointed out yourself, most chiropractic students take a double course load of classes which implies that the rigour and content of those 4485 hours of classroom participation are relatively low.  Medical students are far more academically competitive than chiropractic students(1), yet there is no way that they could double up on medical school classes.  After completing medical school, primary care physicians then go on to complete and additional three years of training(4). Chiropractors don’t. 1) Doxey TT, et al.  Comparison of entrance requirements for health care professions.  Journal of Manipulative and Physiologic Therapeutics.  1997 Feb. 20(2):86-91. 2) Agency for American Health Care Policy and Research: Chiropractic Training. http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter3.htm 3) AHCPR: Licensure and Legal Scope of Practice. http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter5.htm 4) Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education. http://www.acgme.org Additional Resources: AHCPR: Chiropractic in the Health Care System. http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter7.htm Federation of State Medical Boards of the United States. http://www.fsmb.org/index.htm Federation of Chiropractic Licensing Boards of the United States.  http://www.fclb.org/bullet2.asp

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Actually, yes, the chiropractor informed me when he took my medical history and told me why.    But I think the risk is insignificant really.  There’s not much indication of whether or not those who have some sort of adverse reaction might not have had the same thing happen sans the adjustment, perhaps at a slightly later time. Chiropractors have patients sign thing just like surgeons do.  Their malpractice insurance is very low.  They just don’t get sued very often.  I think the insurance industry knows more about risks of things like this than I do.  Now I can’t remember their malpractice insurance, but somehow I determined that driving to the chiropractor’s office entailed more risk than getting an adjustment.  There’s hardly anything that we do in life that doesn’t involve some risk. I try to avoid the large risks, and certainly do wear my shoulder straps.  I have been known to ride my bike on city streets, but *with* a helmet. Let’s try to keep things in perspective. BL

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> x-no-archive:  yes > I almost forgot.  Here’s a link to one of my webpages which > shows how much education a chiroprator gets vs. an allopathic doctor. > http://www.geocities.com/cbpdoc/Education.html > Chiropractic:  4,485 > Allopathic:  4,248

Your figures also, rather cleverly, point to "classroom hours".  Remember that only the first two years of medical school are spent in the classroom. I don’t believe that your numbers are particularly accurate and you don’t reference a source.  Never the less, _after_ completing the first two years of medical school, medical students spend another two years (roughly 4000 hours) doing clinical clerkships in addition to classroom hours.  According to the AHCPR, chiropractic students only receive about 1600 hours of training outside of the classroom.  Primary care physicians receive another 3 years (6000 hours) of training for a total of 10,000 hours compared to the total of 1600 hours that chiropractors receive.  Although I know that you don’t agree, the data supports the hypothesis that chiropractors are on average less academically competitive students who receive substantially less training than physicians. 1) Doxey TT, et al.  Comparison of entrance requirements for health care professions.  Journal of Manipulative and Physiologic Therapeutics.  1997 Feb. 20(2):86-91. 2) Agency for American Health Care Policy and Research: Chiropractic Training. http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter3.htm 3) AHCPR: Licensure and Legal Scope of Practice. http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter5.htm 4) Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education. http://www.acgme.org Additional Resources: AHCPR: Chiropractic in the Health Care System. http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter7.htm Federation of State Medical Boards of the United States. http://www.fsmb.org/index.htm Federation of Chiropractic Licensing Boards of the United States.  http://www.fclb.org/bullet2.asp

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Chiropractic Research Evidence for the Effectiveness of Chiropractic Numerous studies throughout the world have shown that chiropractic treatment, including manipulative therapy and spinal adjustment, is both safe and effective. The following are excerpts from a few of the more recent studies: For Acute Low-Back Problems: "For patients with acute low-back symptoms without radiculopathy, the scientific evidence suggests spinal manipulation is effective in reducing pain and perhaps speeding recovery within the first month of symptoms." – Clinical Practice Guidelines, AHCPR (1994) For Long-Term Low-Back Problems: "There is strong evidence that manipulation is more effective than a placebo treatment for chronic low-back pain or than usual care by the general practitioner, bed rest, analgesics and massage." – Spine, Van Tulder and Bouter et al. (1997) "…improvement in all patients at three years was about 29% more in those treated by chiropractors than in those treated by the hospitals. The beneficial effect of chiropractic on pain was particularly clear." – British Medical Journal, Meade et al. (1995) "Manipulative therapy and physiotherapy are better than general practitioner and placebo treatment. Furthermore, manipulative therapy is slightly better than physiotherapy after 12 months." – British Medical Journal, Koes et al. (1992) For Pain: "…patients suffering from back and/or neck complaints experience chiropractic care as an effective means of resolving or ameliorating pain and functional impairments, thus reinforcing previous results showing the benefits of chiropractic treatment for back and neck pain." – Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Verhoef et al. (1997) "…for the management of low-back pain, chiropractic care is the most effective treatment, and it should be fully integrated into the government’s health care system." – The Manga Report (1993) For Headaches: "Cervical spine manipulation was associated with significant improvement in headache outcomes in trials involving patients with neck pain and/or neck dysfunction and headache." – Duke Evidence Report, McCrory, Penzlen, Hasselblad, Gray (2001) "The results of this study show that spinal manipulative therapy is an effective treatment for tension headaches. . . Four weeks after cessation of treatment. . . the patients who received spinal manipulative therapy experienced a sustained therapeutic benefit in all major outcomes in contrast to the patients that received amitriptyline therapy, who reverted to baseline values." – Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Boline et al. (1995) For the Elderly: "[Elderly] chiropractic users were less likely to have been hospitalized, less likely to have used a nursing home, more likely to report a better health status, more likely to exercise vigorously, and more likely to be mobile in the community. In addition, they were less likely to use prescription drugs." – Topics in Clinical Chiropractic, Coulter et al. (1996)

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>"The results of this study show that spinal manipulative therapy is an >effective treatment for tension headaches. . . Four weeks after cessation of >treatment. . . the patients who received spinal manipulative therapy >experienced a sustained therapeutic benefit in all major outcomes in >contrast to the patients that received amitriptyline therapy, who reverted >to baseline values." – Journal of Manipulative and Physiological >Therapeutics, Boline et al. (1995)

Most studies supporting chiropractic treatments are not properly controlled, like this one.   The JMPT has some appallingly bad clinical studies in it. You can ‘prove’ anything with bad science. One such very badly designed and conducted study in the JMPT wants to push the view that spinal manipulation is good for colic in babies.  And it is with this kind of nonsense that we take issue with chiropractic, rather than its use for fro back pain. This is all public relations stuff, and it would be fine if chiropractic care was, in general, anything like this. There has been a further case of stroke in a young woman after neck manipulation.   It took only took five manipulations to get this one.   What are the odds in a lifetime of "adjustments", as some chiropractors recommend is needed for health? Peter Moran

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have YOU personally ever had Chiropractic care? More patients are killed by MD’s than chiropractors. I’ll take my chances with chiropractors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There has been a further case of stroke in a young woman after neck > manipulation.   It took only took five manipulations to get this one. What > are the odds in a lifetime of "adjustments", as some chiropractors recommend > is needed for health? > Peter Moran

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> One such very badly designed and conducted study in the JMPT wants to push > the view that spinal manipulation is good for colic in babies.  And it is > with this kind of nonsense that we take issue with chiropractic, rather than > its use for fro back pain. > Peter Moran

Can you comment on this posting:

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> One such very badly designed and conducted study in the JMPT wants to push > the view that spinal manipulation is good for colic in babies.  And it is > with this kind of nonsense that we take issue with chiropractic, rather >than > its use for fro back pain. > Peter Moran >Can you comment on this posting:

??? ——can’t find it. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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>have YOU personally ever had Chiropractic care? >More patients are killed by MD’s than chiropractors. >I’ll take my chances with chiropractors.

Would you have your neck manipulated simply because some chiropractors believe it is needed to avoid illness?    As Rich imples, the risks of chiropractic neck manipulation would be acceptable if it was known to cure any important illness. It couldn’t even fix Jan Drew’s headaches —-  or at least she says " I was a patient of Diamond Headache Clinic for years" —– suggests a rather mediocre treatment outcome. Peter

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>have YOU personally ever had Chiropractic care?

I never jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, and do not have to to know that it is not good for me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->More patients are killed by MD’s than chiropractors. >I’ll take my chances with chiropractors. > There has been a further case of stroke in a young woman after neck > manipulation.   It took only took five manipulations to get this one. >What > are the odds in a lifetime of "adjustments", as some chiropractors >recommend > is needed for health? > Peter Moran

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<< I never jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, and do not have to to know that it is not good for me. >> That’s all in your prespective, Mark.  It might be good for you, and it might be good for others that you would jump.   With reference to chiropractic research, and chiropractic treatment, its a matter of choice, just like your choice not to jump off of the bridge.

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No one in the health field considers Chiropractic "alternative " anymore.  See my post under "Chiropractic" below. Lisa   Interesting that so many consider chiropractic to be an alternative health care modality.  It’s covered by insurance just like many other modalities — is accepted by millions (which is emphasized by those in the profession) — has some proof of efficacy, at least with regard to certain musculoskeletal problems & sometimes others — & has thousands & thousands of practitioners using its methods.  Certainly not unusual, radical, or "way out" — so why "alternative"?  Many of those who see DC’s also utilize MD’s.  Many patients combine the use of chiropractic care with other treatments not offered by DC’s like surgery & pharmaceuticals to obtain the best results in treating problems as well as staying healthy.  Many DC’s & MD’s have been able to work together for their patients’ benefit.  Sounds more like both can complement each other in many situations……   Michele  

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Many here do.  Don’t know why, but they do.  And they often try to pit DC’s & MD’s against each other.  Silly.  Both can work together & *neither* has to trash the other.  After all, both have their good points & of course both have their limitations. Michele   No one in the health field considers Chiropractic "alternative " anymore.  See my post under "Chiropractic" below.   Lisa     Interesting that so many consider chiropractic to be an alternative health care modality.  It’s covered by insurance just like many other modalities — is accepted by millions (which is emphasized by those in the profession) — has some proof of efficacy, at least with regard to certain musculoskeletal problems & sometimes others — & has thousands & thousands of practitioners using its methods.  Certainly not unusual, radical, or "way out" — so why "alternative"?  Many of those who see DC’s also utilize MD’s.  Many patients combine the use of chiropractic care with other treatments not offered by DC’s like surgery & pharmaceuticals to obtain the best results in treating problems as well as staying healthy.  Many DC’s & MD’s have been able to work together for their patients’ benefit.  Sounds more like both can complement each other in many situations……     Michele  

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Some small sections of chiropractic practice are no more "alternative"  in terms of the level of evidence that sustains them than some common practices within physiotherapy and sports medicine.   But at the much larger end of chiropractic are those who believe prescientific nonsense that manipulation of the spine is good for all medical problems, and even that we should all get our spines "adjusted’ regularly for health.   It is based upon a theory of spinal "subluxations"  which has exactly the same vaporous (if not totally discredited in its original formulation) quality as the theories of homeopathy, applied kinesiologists, therapeutic touchers etc. Ask the chiropractors who regularly post here to state precisely what they believe about their treatment methods, or at least what they were taught in their chiropractic colleges, and you will soon discover the answer to your question. P Moran

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Most doctors are taught that 75-85% of all illness is stress related in some form or fashion.  If chiropractic can reduce the stress on the neuromuscular system can it then affect in a positive manner 75-85% of all illness? — Rollie Pollie

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Michele it is all a matter of who controls the definitions.  The medical profession controls the medical definitions and therefor, any care that is not considered accepted or inclusive in conventional medical care is alternative in nature.  Chiropractic has not been incorporated into the medical mainstream (like osteopathy)and therefore remains an "alternative" to medicine.  I personally detest the word.  When the care demands the expertise of chiropractic care, or when chiropractic care is more effective than standard medical care then the alternative treatment should be the medical care.  "Alternative" is commonly used as an "us and them" term of segregation. The most effective care for a condition should be the conventional care and the less effective treatments would be the alternative(s). — Rollie Pollie Interesting that so many consider chiropractic to be an alternative health care modality.  It’s covered by insurance just like many other modalities — is accepted by millions (which is emphasized by those in the profession) — has some proof of efficacy, at least with regard to certain musculoskeletal problems & sometimes others — & has thousands & thousands of practitioners using its methods.  Certainly not unusual, radical, or "way out" — so why "alternative"?  Many of those who see DC’s also utilize MD’s.  Many patients combine the use of chiropractic care with other treatments not offered by DC’s like surgery & pharmaceuticals to obtain the best results in treating problems as well as staying healthy.  Many DC’s & MD’s have been able to work together for their patients’ benefit.  Sounds more like both can complement each other in many situations…… Michele

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some small sections of chiropractic practice are no more "alternative"  in > terms of the level of evidence that sustains them than some common practices > within physiotherapy and sports medicine.   > But at the much larger end of chiropractic are those who believe > prescientific nonsense that manipulation of the spine is good for all medical > problems, and even that we should all get our spines "adjusted’ regularly for > health.   It is based upon a theory of spinal "subluxations"  which has > exactly the same vaporous (if not totally discredited in its original > formulation) quality as the theories of homeopathy, applied kinesiologists, > therapeutic touchers etc. > Ask the chiropractors who regularly post here to state precisely what they > believe about their treatment methods, or at least what they were taught in > their chiropractic colleges, and you will soon discover the answer to your > question.

I believe that everyone should get adjusted.  I dont think it is cure for all medical problems and neither does any other chiropractor.  You have misunderstood the chiropractic philosophy.  The spine is the "extension cord" to body.  All the messages from the brain that control the body travel through the nerves which must travel down the spinal cord and out between each spinal vertebra.  Studies have shown that even the slightest pressure exerted (4mm Hg) on nerves impede their activity, thus impeding the function of the structure innervated by the nerve. Newer studies have found that abberrant nociciption(pain), propriception (balance and 3d perception) and mechanoreception (bodies ability to assess joint motion) all affect the sympathetic nervous system (through a loop consisting of the grey and white rami) and can cause the "fight or flight" response to occur for a prolonged period of time which can cause a host of long term problems.  This is not even taking into consideration the aberrant motion patterns which can lead to disc breakdown and osteophytosis.  I am simplifying this somewhat but I can go into much more detail if you wish. So it is pretty easy to see why we believe that everyone should have optimum spinal biomechanics. — Rissew Chiropractic Center at Birkdale 8600 Sam Furr Rd. Suite 180 Huntersville, NC 28078 704-892-2282 http://www.thechiropractor.net

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>Most doctors are taught that 75-85% of all illness is stress related in some >form or fashion.  If chiropractic can reduce the stress on the neuromuscular >system can it then affect in a positive manner 75-85% of all illness?

Again wrong.  In medical school we were taught to fiercely pursue organic diagnosis in every case.    But a few years of everyday primary medical practice, teaches how much of it is stress related or psychosomatic (about 40%, but a lot of the rest of it consists of self-limiting conditions which require only symptomatic treatment).  So doctors tend to be selective about those in whom they "fiercely pursue" a diagnosis and adopt a wait and see policy with the rest. The fact that most illneses behave this way is precisely why such an extraordinary variety of medical practices have  flourished over the millenia.   Well over half your patients are going to be feeling better within a few weeks whatever you do.   What a great basis for a scam!!! Peter Moran

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Interesting that so many consider chiropractic to be an alternative health care modality.  It’s covered by insurance just like many other modalities — is accepted by millions (which is emphasized by those in the profession) — has some proof of efficacy, at least with regard to certain musculoskeletal problems & sometimes others — & has thousands & thousands of practitioners using its methods.  Certainly not unusual, radical, or "way out" — so why "alternative"?  Many of those who see DC’s also utilize MD’s.  Many patients combine the use of chiropractic care with other treatments not offered by DC’s like surgery & pharmaceuticals to obtain the best results in treating problems as well as staying healthy.  Many DC’s & MD’s have been able to work together for their patients’ benefit.  Sounds more like both can complement each other in many situations…… Michele  

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    In this news group Chiropractic is obviously not considered alternative since it is routinely bashed as though it was conventional medicine. I thought people would access such a group in hopes of getting advice or suggestions related to alternative treatments. Instead what I see dominating this group is another form of disease infestation. A select few posters feel the need to INFEST any topic which is brought up (not referring to you Michele). You people and you know who you, are not helping anyone and I know you realize this. I have unsubscribed from this group twice in the last month because I did not feel it was worth my time. But I return because I feel that myself and others who I have followed in these posting have things to offer.     The best way to get rid of your enemies is to make them your friends. So I am back. All is well:)   Interesting that so many consider chiropractic to be an alternative health care modality.  It’s covered by insurance just like many other modalities — is accepted by millions (which is emphasized by those in the profession) — has some proof of efficacy, at least with regard to certain musculoskeletal problems & sometimes others — & has thousands & thousands of practitioners using its methods.  Certainly not unusual, radical, or "way out" — so why "alternative"?  Many of those who see DC’s also utilize MD’s.  Many patients combine the use of chiropractic care with other treatments not offered by DC’s like surgery & pharmaceuticals to obtain the best results in treating problems as well as staying healthy.  Many DC’s & MD’s have been able to work together for their patients’ benefit.  Sounds more like both can complement each other in many situations……   Michele  

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>Michele it is all a matter of who controls the definitions.  The medical >profession controls the medical definitions and therefor, any care that is >not considered accepted or inclusive in conventional medical care is >alternative in nature. >Chiropractic has not been incorporated into the >medical mainstream (like osteopathy)and therefore remains an "alternative" >to medicine.  I personally detest the word.  When the care demands the >expertise of chiropractic care, or when chiropractic care is more effective >than standard medical care then the alternative treatment should be the >medical care. >"Alternative" is commonly used as an "us and them" term of >segregation.

Wide of the mark, Rollie.   The ‘alternative’ description would never be chosen by doctors, because it implies a choice between  measures with somewhat equal validity for any given condition.     We would prefer to use words like "unproven", "dubious", "fraudulent" or "experimental" , depending upon what is known about the specific method and how it is marketed and applied.   What " alternative medicine"  claims as its own is a mixture of all these with a bit of good old-fashioned folk medicine thrown in. >The most effective care for a condition should be the conventional care and >the less effective treatments would be the alternative(s).

And spinal manipulation is the most effective treatment method for what? All chiropractors should be required to answer this question rather than to constantly get away with vague references to chiropractic as though there is anything other than spinal manipulation that defines it as a system of "medicine".   This is at the heart of the dispute with scientific medicine. Present-day dabbling of many in diet, herbalism, homeopathy etc does not change that. Regards Peter Moran

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: Did anyone use Licorice DGL Extract (Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice) before.  I : have read and heard that this nutrient has good capabilities of healing and : preventing ulcers because it strengthens the stomach lining.  Will this : nutrient work and will it conflict with zantac 150?  Also, many people : recommends ginger for my ulcer, is this good advice? : Thanks in advanced, : Stan

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> Did anyone use Licorice DGL Extract (Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice) before.  I > have read and heard that this nutrient has good capabilities of healing and > preventing ulcers because it strengthens the stomach lining.  Will this > nutrient work and will it conflict with zantac 150?  Also, many people > recommends ginger for my ulcer, is this good advice? > Thanks in advanced, > Stan

Yes but stick with extract, not deglycyrrhizinated.  De means taken out, and it is what you want. _BOB —

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 Do NOT  avoid the deglycerinated version because the glycerin is not the active ingredient that helps to restore function of the stomach wall.  It is this component (that is removed in DGL) that causes high blood pressure associated with licorice use.  I have used DGL on several patients and they all have had positive outcomes.  Most voluntarily stop taking Zantac and Rolaids, etc. because the DGL neutralizes the stomach acids as well.  Give it a shot, see what happens and keep us posted! Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Sec. 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. X .net (Robert Mantz, Jr) wrote in article … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Did anyone use Licorice DGL Extract (Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice) before. I > have read and heard that this nutrient has good capabilities of healing and > preventing ulcers because it strengthens the stomach lining.  Will this > nutrient work and will it conflict with zantac 150?  Also, many people > recommends ginger for my ulcer, is this good advice? > Thanks in advanced, > Stan >Yes but stick with extract, not deglycyrrhizinated.  De means taken out, >and it is what you want. >_BOB >–

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> Yes but stick with extract, not deglycyrrhizinated.  De means taken out, > and it is what you want. > _BOB

The Licorice that I have here is from BioEnergy Nutrients and the title says: Licorice DGL Extract.   The back of the container says: Each capsule contains 500 mg of Licorice DGL Extract (Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice; no more than 1% glycyrrhizin). Shall I take this one? Thanks, Stan

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Anyone had any side-effects with using the Licorice DGL Extract? Thanks Stan

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>In article

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Did anyone use Licorice DGL Extract (Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice) before.  I > have read and heard that this nutrient has good capabilities of healing and > preventing ulcers because it strengthens the stomach lining.  Will this > nutrient work and will it conflict with zantac 150?  Also, many people > recommends ginger for my ulcer, is this good advice? > Thanks in advanced, > Stan >Yes but stick with extract, not deglycyrrhizinated.  De means taken out, >and it is what you want. >_BOB >–

   She wants the deglycyrrhizinated.  Glycyrrhizic acid doesn’t do a thing for stomachs, and it will make you retain salt, raise your blood pressure, and waste your potassium.  Not good stuff.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyone had any side-effects with using the Licorice DGL Extract? >I’m not familiar with that particular product, but will guess thatit >contains a standardized extract of licorice, glycyrrhizin. >Lowered potassium and increased blood  pressure are the two major >possible side effects. Eat bananas with the glycyrrhizin! >I’ve used it and never had a problem. But then high blood pressure has >not been an issue for me before starting or since using GL. >            George M. Carter

DGL means deglycyrrhizinated licorice  ie the glycyrrhizin has been removed . It is said to have some good effects on stomachs for people with ulcers and food allergies. Some doctors put there patients on Cytotec and DGL to try and thicken stomach walls where their patients have food allergies from peptides leaking through them causing allergies It also like cytotec is said to be cytoprotective and help with irritations caused to the stomach lining. It really does work for some people. There is no blood pressure aspect to this. Cal

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 Stanward Sueo-Minh Oshiro asked: >The Licorice that I have here is from BioEnergy Nutrients and >the title >says: >Licorice DGL Extract.   >The back of the container says: >Each capsule contains 500 mg of Licorice DGL Extract >(Deglycyrrhizinated >Licorice; no more than 1% glycyrrhizin). >Shall I take this one?

       Stan-               That one sounds okay.  I see a lot of people use the Enzymatic Therapy brand because they guarantee that it will work.  Now, whether it actually will for you remains to be seen , but that way if it doesn’t you don’t lose any money.  Also theirs is chewable (available sweetened & unsweetend) and it’s my understanding that the actual reaction with saliva is important in order for the DGL to be most effective.  I’ve seen many good results with DGL, I hope it works for you!                                       Angela

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Lisa, That is another option I forgot to mention.  Sorry. A good massage therapist can do wonders. Thanks for the advise and reminder Andy. Good Luck and Good Health. Neal writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Have you tried a good massage therapist?  I have found that I have >gotten more relief from a good sports massage therapist than I have >from a Chiropractor. Good luck >            Andy  T

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Have you tried a good massage therapist?  I have found that I have gotten more relief from a good sports massage therapist than I have from a Chiropractor. Good luck                 Andy  T

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Lisa, Nummber one, YES get an xray.  It is always nice to find out exactly what is going on. Secondly, drugs only mask the problem, they just make the pain go asay, sometimes, but do not help the underlying problem. I would suggest any of the following options if Western medicine has not been of help. Accupuncture and/or magnet therapy has helped me tremendously.  I feel these are very viable alternative treatments.  However, if you have been in this ng for any amount of time, you know how people feel about both, especially magnet therapy.  It has helped me; maybe it can help you.  Something to look into. Get the xrays and then you can go from there.  You have to know exactly what kind of injury you have.  Chances are the normal MDs will do the same drug referral protocol (but then again, maybe not). Also with the chiros, you might want to go a few more times or find another. Good Luck and Good Health. Neal (no ads posted) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi everyone >About 2 month ago I did a stupid thing and fell head first into a cement >wall.  I woke up with an aching upper back. >Went to the doctor 2 weeks later and he gave me antiflamatory pills. This >didn’t help, so I went to a Chiro. twice and that didn’t help.  Went back >to the doctor and he game me a muscle relaxer called flexeril. >It’s now early morning and i’ve been taking 3 (10) of flexeril a day. I’m >in so much pain when I lay down.  I only get relieve when i’m standing or >sitting.   There no position that doesn’t ach when i lie down. >What should i do?   Should i tell the doctor to have x-rays?   So far no >drugs are working to get rid of the upper back pain.  Is two months long >enough to deal with this kind of pain? >thanks >lisa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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First , I think you did not find a GOOD chiro . Second , two months is too long . Third , I would think that an acupuncturist could help w/ pain . Then go to a GOOD chiro . Hope this Helps . T – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone > About 2 month ago I did a stupid thing and fell head first into a cement > wall.  I woke up with an aching upper back. > Went to the doctor 2 weeks later and he gave me antiflamatory pills. This > didn’t help, so I went to a Chiro. twice and that didn’t help.  Went back > to the doctor and he game me a muscle relaxer called flexeril. > It’s now early morning and i’ve been taking 3 (10) of flexeril a day. I’m > in so much pain when I lay down.  I only get relieve when i’m standing or > sitting.   There no position that doesn’t ach when i lie down. > What should i do?   Should i tell the doctor to have x-rays?   So far no > drugs are working to get rid of the upper back pain.  Is two months long > enough to deal with this kind of pain? > thanks > lisa

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Hi everyone About 2 month ago I did a stupid thing and fell head first into a cement wall.  I woke up with an aching upper back. Went to the doctor 2 weeks later and he gave me antiflamatory pills.  This didn’t help, so I went to a Chiro. twice and that didn’t help.  Went back to the doctor and he game me a muscle relaxer called flexeril. It’s now early morning and i’ve been taking 3 (10) of flexeril a day.  I’m in so much pain when I lay down.  I only get relieve when i’m standing or sitting.   There no position that doesn’t ach when i lie down. What should i do?   Should i tell the doctor to have x-rays?   So far no drugs are working to get rid of the upper back pain.  Is two months long enough to deal with this kind of pain? thanks lisa

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FYI, One of the major downfalls of chiropractic is that you are NOT going to feel a quick relief from your pain (usually).  But you should within the first two weeks.  I would give the chiropractor another try. Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 ****FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY**** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi everyone >About 2 month ago I did a stupid thing and fell head first into a cement >wall.  I woke up with an aching upper back. >Went to the doctor 2 weeks later and he gave me antiflamatory pills. This >didn’t help, so I went to a Chiro. twice and that didn’t help.  Went back >to the doctor and he game me a muscle relaxer called flexeril. >It’s now early morning and i’ve been taking 3 (10) of flexeril a day. I’m >in so much pain when I lay down.  I only get relieve when i’m standing or >sitting.   There no position that doesn’t ach when i lie down. >What should i do?   Should i tell the doctor to have x-rays?   So far no >drugs are working to get rid of the upper back pain.  Is two months long >enough to deal with this kind of pain? >thanks >lisa

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have any of you tried craniosacral therapy for migraine treatment?  I am currently taking depakote and still getting migraines occassionally.  I would like to find an alternative therapy that works. Becci

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I know as a chiropractor, that I am supposed to be open minded but I attended a few lectures on cranialsacral technique and find it to be quite hard to believe.  The theory (among others) is that the sutures (the connecting points between the different bones of the skull) still move beyond the age of maturity.  And by applying 5 grams of pressure (about the weight of a nickle) to the skull you can affect the body in some "miraculous" ways. I find two problems with this: 1) The sutures DO NOT move past the age of maturity in live (non-cadavor) humans.  The studies that they site show movement in cadavors which might be due to breakdown of tissue surrounding the suture. 2) Even if the sutures moved, 5 grams of pressure is far from enough to cause a change in the bodies function.  Look at it this way, there is enough variation in the length (and therefore, weight) of peoples hair that causes many grams of pressure on the sutures. Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 ****FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY**** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->have any of you tried craniosacral therapy for migraine treatment?  I am >currently taking depakote and still getting migraines occassionally.  I >would like to find an alternative therapy that works. >Becci

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– In my experience, the caffeine in tea is less noticeable than in coffee.  My reaction to tea is much less jagged, less pronounced and has a much longer curve than coffee does. Tea also contains flavanoids which are beneficial.  I’ve switched to green tea, and find the caffeine boost even less noticeable than in black tea. IMHO, it seems to me that the benefits of tea outweigh the possible negative effects of caffeine. Nex "Ah, if in this world there were no such thing as cherry blossoms, perhaps then in springtime our hearts would be at peace." Ariwara no Narihira

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However Tea contains substances which, when over used, cause lead to peptic ulcers.  So be careful!. Dr. Dean Hoppenrath Alliance Chiropractic Center http://homepage.interaccess.com/~drdean "In weakness Power reaches perfection…For when I am weak, then I am strong." -2 Cor 12:9-10 ****FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY**** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Tea also contains flavanoids which are beneficial.  I’ve switched to green >tea, and find the caffeine boost even less noticeable than in black tea. >IMHO, it seems to me that the benefits of tea outweigh the possible negative >effects of caffeine. Nex

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For the past 15 years my favorite beverage has been iced tea.  How much did I drink a day?  I honestly couldn’t tell you although it was definately over 20 cups a day.  Anyway I’ve decided to get the caffeine monkey off my back and have been doing it slowly.  i usually make two large pitchers at a time using eight tea bags.  I started doing 4 regular tea bags with 4 herbal tea bags a nd gradually upped the herbal.  I did it over a period of a month because I wanted to lessen any side effects.    I felt tired the first couple weeks and had to take a nap almost every day. The other thing I’ve noticed is I crave sweets like you wouldn’t believe. While I am seriously into chocolate I have never been into sweets but now every day around four o’clock I start to crave something intensely sweet. I’m wondering if this has anything to do with my lessoning of caffeine and what other changes my body might experience.  I’d be interested to hear about peoples experiences with giving up caffeine.  Thanks

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Other tag team members: a Dr. named Steven Harris, and several "scientific" > >propagandists like David Wright, and then ever so ….. witty? and > >innocently simple minded Jet Silver … it appears that these are all > >fictitious personalities who follow an impeccably relentless policy of > >attacking every non pharmaceutically based health care thought that appears > >on misc.health.alternative. > My suggestion….just like the TV.  You don’t like it, just press the > button on the remote (or get up and turn the channel manually) and > change the station.  Well, if you don’t like their posts, then….don’t > read them. > I cringe and shudder everytime I read or hear or see anyone trying to > peddle censorship!  YECH! > > KarenM

I like them around, nothing like a devils advocate to stop us falling asleep.  I get a good laugh trading posts with Steve. John

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> >Other tag team members: a Dr. named Steven Harris, and several "scientific" >propagandists like David Wright, and then ever so ….. witty? and >innocently simple minded Jet Silver … it appears that these are all >fictitious personalities who follow an impeccably relentless policy of >attacking every non pharmaceutically based health care thought that appears >on misc.health.alternative.

My suggestion….just like the TV.  You don’t like it, just press the button on the remote (or get up and turn the channel manually) and change the station.  Well, if you don’t like their posts, then….don’t read them. I cringe and shudder everytime I read or hear or see anyone trying to peddle censorship!  YECH! KarenM

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Other tag team members: a Dr. named Steven Harris, and several "scientific" >propagandists like David Wright, and then ever so ….. witty? and >innocently simple minded Jet Silver … it appears that these are all >fictitious personalities who follow an impeccably relentless policy of >attacking every non pharmaceutically based health care thought that appears >on misc.health.alternative.   >Their continuing efforts at disrupting the >possibility of freedom to exchange information on alternative health in a >supportive and non hostile environment lead me to offer to assist in >setting up an email list or usenet group which will specifically exclude >persons who continually attack forms of therapy or philosophy they >dissagree with or cannot and will not understand.

DH, what is your problem? You make souch outrageous statements that you make yourself ridiculous. What is this about "fictitious personalities"? Do you think S Harris is actually a herbalist masquerading as a doctor? Or D Wright is a shoe salesman masquearading as an EMS technician? Well, what do you think I am? You don’t listen to what your adversaries are saying, you make up figments of your imagination which sound horrific and then you debunk them with a triumphant war cry. YOU ARE NOT LISTENING! You are conducting a self-monolog with imaginary monsterized versions of these people which may be _the_ fictious personalities you mentioned but which live in your mind only. You keep saying, question authority but you think you are the ultimate authority, or at least that you should be, in deciding who can post on this ng. You say that Harris-Wright-Silver and the others create a hostile environment but in actuality your comments are the ones that are hostile. Your comments are indicative of an agry, paranoid person. This is true even if your intentions may be good and sometimes you offer valid criticism of what you love to call the medical establishment. But since the only things you say are critical, this may be sheer coincidence. Lighten up, man! What makes you think you are such an exceptional person just becuase you are not a physician? — JUST SAY NO – TO SPAM remove the x’s from my email address before responding

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>Hi Steven, All !! >That’s a great idea…. maybe not actually MAILBOMBING (unless you want to) >but it sure seems like it’s high time that the CULT of allopathic medical >reductionist pseudoscience be brought to task for their unrelenting attacks >on homeopathy, chiropractic, and every other form of healing which is not >in direct collusion with the pharmaceutical industry.

Aha!  It’s a *conspiracy*!  Call Oliver Stone and my agent! [vague NCAHF-bashing and reference to their "tag team" deleted to save space] >None of the persons on this tag team EVER contribute ANY "alternative >health" information here !! Only lies, insults, innuendo, partial truth, >carefully slanted disinformation.

What do you contribute? >Other tag team members: a Dr. named Steven Harris, and several "scientific" >propagandists like David Wright,

Golly, I’ve made the first team.  I’m honored.  I particularly like putting "scientific" in quotation marks.  Apparently, science is a bad thing.  Why didn’t someone *tell* me? >and then ever so ….. witty? and >innocently simple minded Jet Silver … it appears that these are all >fictitious personalities who follow an impeccably relentless policy of >attacking every non pharmaceutically based health care thought that appears >on misc.health.alternative.

As I’ve said before, Dave:  fuck you.  I’ve posted my list of altenative modalities I’ve tried and how they worked for me (some did, some didn’t.)  I bash some things and not others. You contribute nothing — I suspect you’re a plant from the NCAHF, here to make alternativists look like raving loonies (and you’re doing a fine job — I’m sure you’re worth whatever they’re paying you). >Their continuing efforts at disrupting the >possibility of freedom to exchange information on alternative health in a >supportive and non hostile environment

Translation:  I want this newsgroup to be a place where anyone can post any "alternative" idea, no matter how stupid or unproven or dangerous, and nobody will say "boo" to it. Tough bananas.  This is an open forum.  Nobody’s preventing you from posting, but if the news transmission software had an idiocy filter on it, your contributions would go straight to the bit bucket. >lead me to offer to assist in >setting up an email list or usenet group which will specifically exclude >persons who continually attack forms of therapy or philosophy they >dissagree with or cannot and will not understand.

Oh, I see: you want to rot in the stink of your own reflections and never have to consider whether what you’re doing is of any value. How wonderful.  I’d sure be offended at being excluded from a list like that.  If you don’t disagree with anything at all, ever, you are a cretin.  You continually attack conventional Western medicine, presumably because you can’t understand it or you disagree with it (not an informed disagreement, I suspect).  Should you be banned from sci.med?  Or is it just that you think you must needs be free to say whatever you wish, and only those who disagree with you should be silenced? That’s the real acid test of someone’s integrity — whether they want to muzzle those with whom they disagree.  You flunk, by the way. Oh, and I think it’d be great if homeopathic products had to pass the same "safe & effective" requirements that ordinary drugs do, though I’d prefer it if the tests did not cost millions to run.      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "My theory of evolution: I think Darwin was adopted."                                        – Steven Wright (no relation)

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> >Their continuing efforts at disrupting the >possibility of freedom to exchange information on alternative health in a >supportive and non hostile environment lead me to offer to assist in >setting up an email list or usenet group which will specifically exclude >persons who continually attack forms of therapy or philosophy they >dissagree with or cannot and will not understand.

Egads Hartley are you serious? The biggest downside to alternative/complimentary therapies in the U.S. is the huge amount of useless pills, powders, exlixers, extracts and so forth being sold by unknowing, uncaring or unscrupulus people. Because most of the products are natural extracts or everyday items like magnets, regulation is impossible. But, its wise to ask if there is proof of efficacy other than people’s testimonials. If you would like to go out and by a product because your neighbor told you that it works you are free to do so despite what Steve Harris or Jet Silver may say about it. On the other hand, their constant demands for evidence that the product will do what it claims it will do may prevent people from being taken advantage of. There is a very interesting mode of thinking that comes into play here. If I told you that I had a powder that you could pour in the gas tank of your car which would double your gas mileage and increase your horsepower by 50%, you’d likely want some evidence that it would 1) do as I claimed it would and 2) not harm your engine. And I suspect a bunch of testimonials from people you don’t know would not convice you. Yet many people are willing to put all sorts of things in their bodies without the smallest shred of _scientific_ evidence that they will either work or will even not be dangerous. And when someone dares to ask if there is evidence, they are blasted for being narrow-minded. Columbus did not ask that his critics be banished or their tounges be cut out. He set sail and proved them wrong. Take a lesson. The above represent my _personal_ opinions, not those of anyone else unless they have been quoted I am on a SPAM restricted diet. Reply-to has been changed accordingly.

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>Other tag team members: a Dr. named Steven Harris, and several "scientific" >propagandists like David Wright, and then ever so ….. witty? and >innocently simple minded Jet Silver … it appears that these are all >fictitious personalities who follow an impeccably relentless policy of >attacking every non pharmaceutically based health care thought that appears >on misc.health.alternative.  

So it seems… >Their continuing efforts at disrupting the >possibility of freedom to exchange information on alternative health in a >supportive and non hostile environment lead me to offer to assist in >setting up an email list or usenet group which will specifically exclude >persons who continually attack forms of therapy or philosophy they >dissagree with or cannot and will not understand.

This is an unmoderated newsgroup.  There is no way anyone can censor out these people unless you self-moderate using a killfile or just ignore.  There is no one hindering anyone from exchanging information on this newsgroup.  If the above mentioned people want to play devil advocates, then they are free to do so.  It just challenges the poster to make sure the person has their facts straight or challenges them to defend their claims. I’m not sure an email list would help to attract people to post more information from different areas of alternative medicine.  First, a email list needs a fair moderator to eliminate spammers, and put out flame wars, unsub unruly people, etc.  (Someone has to take the responsibility)  It takes time for a number of people to join an email list and make it conducive to discussions. (Where are you going to attract the experts that know their field to join the list?  A lot of people may ask a lot of questions and not get any replies thus leading to a lot of "fluff" content).  Someone needs to allocate some server space for an email list. (That takes money) Most people who use the ‘net probably find that they know email best and newsgroups are fustrating to use, so maybe an email list would work. I joined several email lists in the past, all of the I have unsubbed. Medicinal Herb list:  This was the best list that I joined, but it had it’s weaknesses.  The moderator who stepped in was too bossy, and IMO unfairly unsubbed a few people (eg. someone mentioned the word "noni" and was immediately unsubbed.  I emailed the person an he was a MLM business man, he could not get back on the list after almost begging to the moderator to get reinstated.)  People were unsubbed if they mentioned a herbal product or some product of some sort without having the magical words "no commercial interest" somewhere in there post.  I could see the idea behind that which was to eliminate covert spammers, but it just got to a point of being ridiculous.  Just mentioning products was almost grounds for getting unsubbed.  The moderator had a chum on the list who had more leeway than other people because he "knew his herbs" and was knowledgeable in chinese medicine.  He could berate people and no actions were taken against him.  Some interesting discussions on nutrition were on this list even though it was considered to be off-topic. Another herb list:  Didn’t interest me that much.  People were talking about how to grow herbs.. Another list which I forgot the name:  I wasn’t very helpful.  I think it was operated by a BBS moderator which made posting seem awkward.  I didn’t get any useful information out of the list.  Mostly people were inquiring about something and had nothing to share. Walter.

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Hi Steven, All !! That’s a great idea…. maybe not actually MAILBOMBING (unless you want to) but it sure seems like it’s high time that the CULT of allopathic medical reductionist pseudoscience be brought to task for their unrelenting attacks on homeopathy, chiropractic, and every other form of healing which is not in direct collusion with the pharmaceutical industry. Unfortunately William T Jarvis DDS, PhD, is rather reclusive on the net, and hides behind  the National Council Against Health Fraud, P.O. Box 1276, Loma Linda, CA 92354-1276, fax (909) 824-4838. http://www.ncahf.org/ Until Mr.Jarvis steps forward to be accountable, email should be addressed to : Any one who cares to might mail their opinions or whatever to the following persons www.skeptic.com where http://www.skeptic.com/03.1.jarvis-homeo.html  that Steven Vogue references is hosted. listed on his site) for Stephen Barrett  (reknown homeopathic / chiropractic basher and "Quacker" who is a "retired psychiatrist" and an obnoxious part of an ongoing "tag team" of disinformation specialists on misc.health.alternative , and who lists the following as "NONRECOMMENDED SOURCE of Advice" Robert Atkins, M.D. (to be posted) Jeffrey Bland, Ph.D. (posted 5/29/97) Deepak Chopra, M.D. (to be posted) Earl Mindell (to be posted) Gary Null (updated 6/4/97) Andrew Weil, M.D. (to be posted) None of the persons on this tag team EVER contribute ANY "alternative health" information here !! Only lies, insults, innuendo, partial truth, carefully slanted disinformation. Other tag team members: a Dr. named Steven Harris, and several "scientific" propagandists like David Wright, and then ever so ….. witty? and innocently simple minded Jet Silver … it appears that these are all fictitious personalities who follow an impeccably relentless policy of attacking every non pharmaceutically based health care thought that appears on misc.health.alternative.  Their continuing efforts at disrupting the possibility of freedom to exchange information on alternative health in a supportive and non hostile environment lead me to offer to assist in setting up an email list or usenet group which will specifically exclude persons who continually attack forms of therapy or philosophy they dissagree with or cannot and will not understand. Any one interested may reply using the subject "alt health" to Aloha,   Dave.          Think for Yourself.             Question Authority – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– Sent:   Wednesday, July 09, 1997 11:10 AM To: Hi folks: Found this crap on the net and thought I’d send a portion of it.  Those who want the entire diatribe from the "National Council Against Health Fraud" can get it at: http://www.skeptic.com/03.1.jarvis-homeo.html It becomes immediately obvious that there needs to be a "Council Against Fraudulent Councils Against Health Fraud" Recommendations The NCAHF advises consumers not to buy homeopathic products or to patronize homeopathic practitioners. Basic scientists are urged to be proactive in opposing the marketing of homeopathic remedies because of conflicts with known physical laws. Those who study homeopathic remedies are warned to beware of deceptive practices in addition to applying sound research methodologies. State and federal regulatory agencies are urged to require homeopathic products to meet the same standards as regular drugs, and to take strong enforcement actions against violators, including the discipline of health professionals who practice homeopathy. States are urged to abolish homeopathic licensing boards. Perhaps we should mail-bomb them with paper remedy emails :>) <bigger>S</bigger>teven Vogue, D.C., N.D. Optimum Health & Chiropractic Center

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