Chiropractic Healthiness

Question:

>x-no-archive:  yes >I seriously doubt the average chiropracter knows half as much biochemistry >or physiology as the average MD. >      I invite you to hang out with me for a week at Palmer.

Now THAT’S a safe invitation to hand out:-)  Somehow I have a feeling that Aaron would rather stay in NYC than coming to Iowa to "hang out" with someone who is fixated in some pregenital stage of development.  I think >you’d change your opinion of a chiropractor’s knowledge of >biochemistry AND physiology. In a BIG way.

The legend in YOUR own mind continues I see. >Backcrkr

Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

> >Then why are they so unwilling to discuss it? Is it some sort of > secret they are conspiratorially keeping to themselves? I’ve never been > to any doctor who has given me nutritional information as part of a > treatment program, nor do I know anyone else who has received any.< >    You must not know anybody with obesity, heart disease, or diabetes.

That’s the point – why do they wait until there is a "disease" underway, such as those you’ve mentioned, to talk about nutrition (if they in fact do)? Why not do some preventive counseling? And in fact, my father, who is a coronary patient, was not given any substantive nutritional advice and was served a high fat meal after his bypass. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Is this because I didn’t have any "disease" per se, but rather just a > malady? A recent experience is a friend who had a hysterectomy; no > nutritional advice was offered there, though the connection of diet to > uterine fibroids is not unknown.< >    The connection of diet to uterine fibroids is not unknown?  If we > can untangle the grammer there, you’re claiming a connection. > Okay, let’s see you make it.  Cite science.  We want to know if this > doctor screwed up by not telling the patient something that had been > firmly established as human knowledge, but he was just ignorant of it. > Cite your sources. > What doctor out there can tell me how one should modify one’s diet >to receive the same preventative benefits against breast cancer that >Tamoxifen offers, without the side effects? >     None, because no proof of such a thing exists.  There is suggestive > epidemiology only.  Your doctor can say: "Eat like the Japanese– very > low fat and lots of soy."   And probably will.  But we all know that > this is just a guess.  The effect of Tamoxifen is no longer a guess. > We know. >                                    Steve Harris, M.D.

And why is that? Why do we know all about Tamoxifen, but not about soy or some other dieatary connection? The original poster, whose point you’ve snipped, stated that MDs’ knowledge about nutrition vis-a-vis health is far superior to anyone else’s. I guess you’re saying it’s not. BTW, the use of a double negative is not uncommon (there it is again) for emphasis. It’s appropriate in this particular case where the information is not unequivocal (AGAIN!!) as in the POSSIBLE connection between diet and fibroids. I don’t have studies – I’m asking the purported experts for it. And since you managed to untangle the GRAMMAR (note spelling), why bother making that point? How about sticking to the content? hazmat

Response:

> When was the last time you asked your local MD about how much education he’s > had in nutrition?  If you ask, he’s likely to tell you that he had ZERO to TWO > credits of education in the area.  Ask him how much continuing education he’s > had in the subject since med school.  He’s likely to tell you,"none, but I’ve > been to a lot of drug seminars." . . .

And it goes on.  It is unfortunate that some few who are committed to Alternative methods of health have a tendency to "bash" those who have an MD in what we term "Western" medicine.  Western medicine has done great good and made some incredible advances that have helped people to live longer, more fulfilled lives. There are two MDs in our organization who are committed to alternative methods as well as the more standard drugs (many of which start as botanicals). Aloe Vera Studies Organization http://www.aloe-vera.org

Response:

>    Good luck.  It’s not unlikely that you will find that the > putative nutrition-disease connection knowledge of any purported > expert here, is not without major epistemological problem.  Why > ridicule doctors for lack of that which is not possessed by > anyone at present? >                                   Tangledly Yrs, >                                     Steve

That is not unfunny. hazmat

Response:

MD’s know alot about the "practice of medicine" you know how it works – practice long enough and you will get right just my twocents — Kelley Greene Sedona SuperNaturals, Inc "Your Source for Healthy, Natural Products" 888.239.3558 phone 520.204.2476 fax http://www.sedonanaturals.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Response:

>> When was the last time you asked your local MD about how much

education he’s had in nutrition?<<     "It’s not the things you don’t know that hurt you, so much as the things you know, that just ain’t so!"   — Josh Billings      Education in nutrition is a funny thing, you know.  When our orthodox doctors don’t get classroom time in it, it obviously means they don’t know anything about it, QED.  But when the guy talking about nutrition is Gary Null or Dirk Pearson or Linus Pauling or Nathan Pritikin or John Diamond or even Andrew Weil, M.D., somehow we’re willing to cut them quite a lot of slack for the lack of classroom time.  For one thing, we know they must have read each other’s books… <g>.                                          Steve Harris, M.D.  

Response:

writes: >Chiropracter students NEED to take twice as many >hours as their average intelligence is markedly lower than MD >students.

Rich, are you suffering from constipation? If you are, you could go to an MD who would tell you to drink more water, increase your intake of bulky food, and maybe suggest a laxative.  If the problem continues for an extended period of time (months or years even), he then refers you to a Gastroenterologist who does a series of invasive and very expensive tests all to tell you there is nothing physically wrong.  How is your home life?  Suggests more anti-gas drugs and maybe a Psychiatrist.   He did his job, didn’t he?  At least you know you are not suffering from a dis-ease that would show up on Ex-rays (of all kinds). Or, I could recommend a good Chiropractor who will start with your spine and just maybe find that area which directly relates to your intestines and with a little manipulation can begin to correct a problem that started years ago with minor symptoms. But that’s not all.  From the symptoms you describe, he suspects food intolerance (not allergies).  He has ways of testing you to determine which foods may be aggrevating your condition.  You eliminate those foods from your diet and find that your symptoms are much improved.   From personal experience, (1981-1983) I discovered that MD’s rule out serious disease and TREAT symptoms.  (1985-current) I have found the Chiropractor to help me achieve OPTIMUM health.  I have only had to see an MD in the last 15 years 4 times.  I have 4 very healthy children delivered by an MD. Linda "There are many ways to skin a cat."  STOP Bashing the Chiropractors. ‘Have you hugged your Chiropractor today?’

Response:

>Then why are they so unwilling to discuss it? Is it some sort of

secret they are conspiratorially keeping to themselves? I’ve never been to any doctor who has given me nutritional information as part of a treatment program, nor do I know anyone else who has received any.<    You must not know anybody with obesity, heart disease, or diabetes. But your lack of experience is YOUR problem, not ours. >Is this because I didn’t have any "disease" per se, but rather just a

malady? A recent experience is a friend who had a hysterectomy; no nutritional advice was offered there, though the connection of diet to uterine fibroids is not unknown.<    The connection of diet to uterine fibroids is not unknown?  If we can untangle the grammer there, you’re claiming a connection. Okay, let’s see you make it.  Cite science.  We want to know if this doctor screwed up by not telling the patient something that had been firmly established as human knowledge, but he was just ignorant of it. Cite your sources. > What doctor out there can tell me how one should modify one’s diet >to receive the same preventative benefits against breast cancer that >Tamoxifen offers, without the side effects?

    None, because no proof of such a thing exists.  There is suggestive epidemiology only.  Your doctor can say: "Eat like the Japanese– very low fat and lots of soy."   And probably will.  But we all know that this is just a guess.  The effect of Tamoxifen is no longer a guess. We know.                                    Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Another case in which chiropractic will help.  A subluxation of a segment, >may >cause mechanical change to the cell body (soma) of a sensory nerve cell in >the >dorsal root ganglion (DRG), which happens to lie in the intervertebral >foramen >(between two vertebrae).  This mechanical change will cause the nerve cell >to >become facilitated; therefore, it will fire more easily.  Since the stimulus >to >the nerve occurs at the cell body instead of in the peripheral tissues, the >impulse will travel both towards the spinal cord (normal direction) and also >in >an antidromic pattern (or in a way opposite from expected).  Note that this >antidromic flow is inhibited in normal nerve function by the absolute >refractory period of the cell.  In many cases this sensory neuron receives >it’s >input from mast cells, so when the impulse "hits" this mast cell, it will >stimulate the cell, which releases histamine, causing an inflammatory >reaction >in the end organ, which may then cause pathology (of virtually any organ). >Now, having said all that, this is a theory which shows how chiropractic may >affect end organs, and the theory needs to be fully tested (hopefully more >quickly than not).  Hope you enjoyed your reading  (now time to go see >http://members.aol.com/DrsPage/humor.htm to lighten things up.  :) >Thanx for the explanation of the theory with the caveat that it needs >to be tested. Could you share with me the evidence that the nerve >conduction is the opposite direction in vivo. Thanx again.

That article would be "Antidromic vasodilatation and nerurogenic inflammation" written by J. Szolcsanyi published in Agents and Actions, vol. 23, 1/2 (1988) For how segmental dysfunction (subluxation) affects neurons please see "Lumbar facet pain:  Biomechanics, neuroanatomy and neurophysiology" by John Cavanaugh, published in Journal of Biomechanics, vol 29, no. 9, pp 1117-1129 (1996).

Response:

That’s the spirit Aaron!  What I learned in Chiropractic college is exactly what that study said.  A method of pounding on the spine in the areas of t1-5 and T8-L2 will cause your Sympathetic nerves to fire however.  It gives asthma sufferers some relief, but it obviously cant compete with a powerful (liver destroying) drug. Asthma treatment is now focusing on controlling the inflammation rather than treating the symptoms (thank god we’re coming out of the dark ages-even with what DC’s do…). Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

Troldahl) writes: >I have also noticed this about hospitals.  You would think that they would do a >better job of feeding heart patients, stroke victims, etc., something that their >doctors would approve of.  I know the wife of a stroke victim who actually had >to bring food into the hospital with her because at least 2 of his 3 meals a day >were food that his doctor had ordered him not to eat!!!

   Sounds like some doc forgot to write good dietary orders.  I mean, really– they have dieticians on staff, and if you (the doc) know what you want in the way of diet as therapy, you WILL generally get it.  And the nice nutritionists will help you order it, if you’re not quite sure what you need (300 mg cholesterol, 20% fat, ADA, 2 gram sodium, lactose free diet?  No problemo.  You want that kosher, too?  You might even be able to get that).  The only thing not guaranteed in any hospital is the taste.  But taste is in the mouth of the beholder, so to speak.                                    Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

>And why is that? Why do we know all about Tamoxifen, but not about soy

or some other dieatary connection?<    Well, I think you know the reason.  People don’t like to pay for information at reasonable rates, and won’t really do so except with lawyers, and they hate lawyers for it.  It costs millions of dollars to do a good scientific clinical study, and when the results come out, people want to have them for the price of a newspaper.  They do NOT want to pay their fair share of the costs of getting the information. The patent process is what forces them to do that, and that taxing of people for information is what drives research in pharmaceuticals. So there is money to study Tamoxifen.  And, to some extent, also of course new stuff in agriculture, so long as it’s novel and of a certain kind. That soy in your soy milk may be high yield hybrid soy, and you pay for the research that way.  But only if somebody can figure out how to market a product.  Information, at present, is still hard to charge for. > The original poster, whose point you’ve >snipped, stated that MDs’ knowledge about nutrition vis-a-vis health >is far superior to anyone else’s. I guess you’re saying it’s not.<

   We don’t know more than nutritionists and other science types (including the best of the naturopaths), but we do well by comparison with many of the "health practitioners" who THINK they know a lot about nutrition.  It ain’t the stuff you know that hurts you, as Josh Billings says, "it’s the stuff you know, that just ain’t so!" >BTW, the use of a double negative is not uncommon (there it is

again) for emphasis. It’s appropriate in this particular case where the information is not unequivocal (AGAIN!!) as in the POSSIBLE connection between diet and fibroids. I don’t have studies – I’m asking the purported experts for it.<<    Good luck.  It’s not unlikely that you will find that the putative nutrition-disease connection knowledge of any purported expert here, is not without major epistemological problem.  Why ridicule doctors for lack of that which is not possessed by anyone at present?                                     Tangledly Yrs,                                     Steve

Response:

writes: >Thanx for the explanation of the theory with the caveat that it needs >to be tested. Could you share with me the evidence that the nerve >conduction is the opposite direction in vivo. Thanx again.

There are in vivo articles, but I do not have copies of the articles, and I won’t pretend to quote them without rereading them, as if I would expect you to believe me without the bibliography to quote .  It may be a few days though, as I am entering finals, for which I need to study.  Also, the articles are not in any journals that our college will have in the library, so I will need to travel to the local med school to get to them. I’ll post the information as soon as I can. Lee Weathers  

Response:

>     The polls have closed, and the results are in.  KalalauRich won >the "most full of shit" contest by a landslide.  I dub thee Captain >Bullshit. You may wear your title proudly – like a badge on your >sleeve.

Was it YOU Backcracker was hoping that I was not an MD because you would be embarrassed for my profession?? Guess you are demonstrating quite clearly the respect that YOU have for chiropracty by YOUR infantile remarks. But considering the admission requirements for Chiropractic School it is not surprising at all. YOU are really giving the chiropractic profession a real shot in the arm (so to speak). Keep up  the good work. >Actually I never got my GED if you must know. Hope that makes you feel >better:-) >     Ah, don’t feel too bad. You’ll have more chances. And then you >can retire from working the deep fryer at Burger King.

No actually I am NOW planning to go to Chiropracty School. You have convinced me. >Backcrkr

Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

>> I have yet to hear from a >chiropracter on this list or elsewhere who gives evidence of knowing as >much organic chemistry or epidemiology as any MD I know and trust. >     And this shows me that you have never met a chiropractor in your >entire life.

And this shows me that you are claiming to have met EVERY chiropractor in existence. After all how else would you know about the knowledge of the chiropracters that Aaron has met??   The difference between how much chemistry education a >chiropractor has far exceeds that of an M.D.  Chiropractors generally >must complete 325 hours of classroom education. Wheras for an M.D. >it’s only 165 hours.

Ahhhhh. Even if it were true that chiropracters complete more hours of classroom education (which it is not) than MD’s you perhaps are missing the point. Chiropracter students NEED to take twice as many hours as their average intelligence is markedly lower than MD students. It just takes them longer to get it. And some never do get it.  But you really don’t need to understand much chemistry  to crack backs anyway. Most of the chiropracters that I have spoken to really could not understand the necessity of taking so many basic science courses as they never really used any of it in their practice. Aloha, Rich Aloha, Rich >And I >have *never* met a non-MD/non-PhD "nutritionist" with such knowledge. >     I suggest that you get out more. >Assistant Professor of Music (Ethnomusicology) >      Hmmm. Perhaps we would be better off discussing 16th century >(Palestrina era) counterpoint. >Backcrkr

Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

 lf.   >I will agree that some chiropractors (probably more than I want to admit) >exaggerate claims, in that they make claims that have not been proven in >randomized clinical trials.

Thank you for acknowledging this.  But then on the other hand not all medical >protocols have been either.

This is true.   As far as chiropractic is concerned, I will say >that not only musculoskeletal conditions will be helped, but that other >conditions might also.

Again an honest response tempered with caution (note the word "might"). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->And aren’t there some chiro’s who still reject the germ theory of disease >entirely? >Probably, but I’m ashamed to admit it. >Lee Weathers >Chiropractic student >Another case in which chiropractic will help.  A subluxation of a segment, may >cause mechanical change to the cell body (soma) of a sensory nerve cell in the >dorsal root ganglion (DRG), which happens to lie in the intervertebral foramen >(between two vertebrae).  This mechanical change will cause the nerve cell to >become facilitated; therefore, it will fire more easily.  Since the stimulus to >the nerve occurs at the cell body instead of in the peripheral tissues, the >impulse will travel both towards the spinal cord (normal direction) and also in >an antidromic pattern (or in a way opposite from expected).  Note that this >antidromic flow is inhibited in normal nerve function by the absolute >refractory period of the cell.  In many cases this sensory neuron receives it’s >input from mast cells, so when the impulse "hits" this mast cell, it will >stimulate the cell, which releases histamine, causing an inflammatory reaction >in the end organ, which may then cause pathology (of virtually any organ). >Now, having said all that, this is a theory which shows how chiropractic may >affect end organs, and the theory needs to be fully tested (hopefully more >quickly than not).  Hope you enjoyed your reading  (now time to go see >http://members.aol.com/DrsPage/humor.htm to lighten things up.  :)

Thanx for the explanation of the theory with the caveat that it needs to be tested. Could you share with me the evidence that the nerve conduction is the opposite direction in vivo. Thanx again. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

>x-no-archive:  yes >And this shows me that you are claiming to have met EVERY chiropractor >in existence. >     Oh, that’s a brilliant extrapolation.  Did you actually come up >with that all by yourself?  Or did your parents help you?  I’d be >willing to bet that I’ve met a whole heck of a lot more chiropractors >AND M.D.’s than has Aaron.

Yeah. So what?  You sound like a second grader claiming "Mine is bigger than yours". 3.89 avg huh:-) >After all how else would you know about the knowledge of >the chiropracters that Aaron has met?? >     Hmmm. Could it be that the pre-medical/pre-chiropractic >requirements for organic chemistry are the exact same thing?

Hmmm. Does a person’s knowledge come from spending many hours in a classroom?? Just because a chiropracter takes these courses does NOT mean he/she understands them. This seems to be a point that is going quite over your head (surprise, surprise). >Ahhhhh. Even if it were true that chiropracters complete more hours of >classroom education (which it is not) >     Yes it is.

I encourage those who are interested in getting curricula from Palmer College of Chiropractic and John’s Hopkins Med School and decide for yourself. >Chiropracter students NEED to take twice as many >hours as their average intelligence is markedly lower than MD >students. >     I imagine that you know this from one of your famous medline >fishing expeditions?  Or is this just yet another example of how full >of shit you really are?  

I will allow others to decide who is full of shit as you put it. >It just takes them longer to get it. And some never do get >it. >     Speaking of never getting it…  How long till you get that GED?

Actually I never got my GED if you must know. Hope that makes you feel better:-) > But you really don’t need to understand much chemistry  to crack >backs anyway. >     The depth of your ignorance is truely astonishing.  

I love these self referential statements. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

<< An MD that stays current and is interested in nutrition will be much more adept at applying nutritional science to a patients treatment than a chiropractor or RD   [I always loved that term-jh]  since they are also more qualified in the areas of pharmocology and the treatment of disease.>>> Pharmacology has little to do with nutrition except for drug interactions and side-effects, but I do envy the MD’s amount of Physiology.  After all, they’ve got to know what they’re poisoning.  Guess what though?  An NWCC chiro grad will get 150 hours of Physio, while a UofMinnesota MD get’s 84.  Chiro’s get 30 hours of Pharmacology (and could care less why), while the MD gets 83 plus continual usage of drugs to find all kinds of neato’ side-effects. I think the MD’s do an excellent job with drug therapy, but a horrible job with nutrition and any therapy regarding the muscles and joints. Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

>I never saw Backcrack’s original reply to my post, so I’ll respond to this >follow-up  from Rich.  I specifically said "I have yet to meet a >chiropracter on this list," first of all, which means that no chiropracter >posting to this list has said anything (I’ve been here  afew months and >there are several chirporacters who have posted regularly in that period) >which was informed by a particularly deep knowledge of the principles and >language of  basic science, let alone a deep knowledge of the specific >subjects i discussed.  Of course, it’s true, they may have had no reason >to bring in such knowledge to this discussion, or they haven’t posted to >discussions where such knowledge might be useful (but they have, >actually).  But I also said I had met other chiropracters.

Since I have just joined this newsgroup, I can’t say about chiropractors competently discussing topics here.  However, I will also say that when I make any posts, I usually don’t address myself as a Chiropractor, as it is usually extraneous information and not relevant to the topic. >Look, I’m not dissing chiropractic entirely here.  I have also >said some *nice* things about chiros here before — I have two relatives >who have had good results from chiropracters (one of whom I’ve talked to >at length) with *back pain,* and I don’t deny the efficacy of chiropractic >for musculoskeletal problems, and back and neck problems in particular, >although I think the claims of chiropractic in general are vastly >over-stated, and I have my doubts about the comparability of chiropractic >education and medical school education for MDs.  I’ve discussed this  at >length here before, so I’ll forego repeating myself.  

I will agree that some chiropractors (probably more than I want to admit) exaggerate claims, in that they make claims that have not been proven in randomized clinical trials.  But then on the other hand not all medical protocols have been either.  As far as chiropractic is concerned, I will say that not only musculoskeletal conditions will be helped, but that other conditions might also. (Should be another thread, but I will include an instance at the very end of this post, if you are so interested).  Also I will include at the bottom of my post a list of hours by a few subjects that are required by DCs and MDs respectively. >I seriously doubt the average chiropracter knows half as much biochemistry >or physiology as the average MD. However, I’m fairly certain that the >*most* scientifically literate chiropracters aren’t as knowledgable about >biochemistry as medical doctors in specialties like endocrinology, >immunology, infectious disease, epidemiology, reproductive medicine, >neurology, or psychiatry,   Hours in the classroom in a specific >subject don’t automatically translate into superior knowledge anyway.

I will refrain from commenting on the average DC or MD, as I am not in a position to say what is average, but I won’t agree to the exaggeration of half the physiology or biochemistry.  I will agree that most literate DCs aren’t as knowledgeable in biochemistry as the specialist MDs that you mentioned, but then neither of us should expect them to be, as that is not our specialty.  I would dare say that I would not expect primary care physicians to have the same level of knowledge either.  It is true that hours of study do not the knowledge make, but one does for sure follow the other. >We’ve been around and around on this.  The standards for admission to >chiropractic school are lower than for admission to a good medical school. >You can’t deny that.

I don’t, but that is changing rapidly.  In the next 3 -5yrs BS degrees will be required (they should have been required quite some time ago).  I am not sure about GPA requirements going up or not, though. >But I’m willing to be proved wrong.  What it would take would be >contributions to threads on this list which deal with biochemistry and >molecular biology and complex issues in immunology, epidemiology, >virology, etc. from chiros. which displayed a commanding knowledge of the >basic science.  Very few posters here ever get into such subjects.

Again, I’m not sure that people always post their degrees, or areas of study. >And aren’t there some chiro’s who still reject the germ theory of disease >entirely?

Probably, but I’m ashamed to admit it. Lee Weathers Chiropractic student The following class hours were compiled following a review of catalog requirements from 11 chiropractic and 22 medical colleges and updated from the National Health Federation bulletin. Hours are listed as the minimum required. Subject                                         Medical                 Chiropractic Anatomy                                           508                           520 Physiology                                       326                           420 Pathology                                         335                           271 Chemistry                                         325                           300 Bacteriology                                    130                           114 Diagnosis                                          374                          370 Neurology                                        112                           320 Radiology                                         148                            217 Psychiatry                                         144                             65 Obstetrics and Gynecology           198                              65         Orthopedics                                      156                           225 Total                                                 2,756                         2,887 Other required classes for DCs include adjusting and kinesiology among others. Other required classes for MDs includte pharmacology, immunology, and genderal surgery among others.   Grand Total class hours                4,248                          4,485 Another case in which chiropractic will help.  A subluxation of a segment, may cause mechanical change to the cell body (soma) of a sensory nerve cell in the dorsal root ganglion (DRG), which happens to lie in the intervertebral foramen (between two vertebrae).  This mechanical change will cause the nerve cell to become facilitated; therefore, it will fire more easily.  Since the stimulus to the nerve occurs at the cell body instead of in the peripheral tissues, the impulse will travel both towards the spinal cord (normal direction) and also in an antidromic pattern (or in a way opposite from expected).  Note that this antidromic flow is inhibited in normal nerve function by the absolute refractory period of the cell.  In many cases this sensory neuron receives it’s input from mast cells, so when the impulse "hits" this mast cell, it will stimulate the cell, which releases histamine, causing an inflammatory reaction in the end organ, which may then cause pathology (of virtually any organ). Now, having said all that, this is a theory which shows how chiropractic may affect end organs, and the theory needs to be fully tested (hopefully more quickly than not).  Hope you enjoyed your reading  (now time to go see http://members.aol.com/DrsPage/humor.htm to lighten things up.  :)

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When was the last time you asked your local MD about how much education he’s had in nutrition?  If you ask, he’s likely to tell you that he had ZERO to TWO credits of education in the area.  Ask him how much continuing education he’s had in the subject since med school.  He’s likely to tell you,"none, but I’ve been to a lot of drug seminars." Of course there are exceptions, but really folks, why are we turning to people who have no knowledge in the area for help?  Ask you chiropractor, he’s knows his stuff, uses it everyday, and has nearly SIX TIMES the amount of training over an MD in the areas of nutrition, exercise, and WELLNESS.  For references, write to Northwestern College of Chiropractic (a 4-year postgraduate program), at:  2501 West Eighty-Fourth Street, Bloomington, MN 55431-1599 for a college catalogue. Comments? (Greyhawk Web Page:

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In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My M.D. knows a lot about nutrition.  I think in part it’s because courses > in "nutrition" per se are no the only way to learn about the subject.  The > much more sophisticated training one gets in a decent medical school (and > pre-med program) in biochemistry, human physiology, immunology, and > epidemiology helps to put the rather simplistic and ideological content of > most "nutrition" discourse in a more total perspective.  Knowing how > nutrients are metabolized, what role (if any) they play in disease > processes and immune response,  how to interpret scientific studies of > nutrition, etc.  are all key parts of any properly scientific > understanding of the applied subject.  I have yet to hear from a > chiropracter on this list or elsewhere who gives evidence of knowing as > much organic chemistry or epidemiology as any MD I know and trust.  And I > have *never* met a non-MD/non-PhD "nutritionist" with such knowledge. > AF > Aaron A. Fox > Assistant Professor of Music (Ethnomusicology) > Columbia University >    web: http://roar.music.columbia.edu/~cecenter/afindex.html

Then why are they so unwilling to discuss it? Is it some sort of secret they are conspiratorially keeping to themselves? I’ve never been to any doctor who has given me nutritional information as part of a treatment program, nor do I know anyone else who has received any. Is this because I didn’t have any "disease" per se, but rather just a malady? A recent experience is a friend who had a hysterectomy; no nutritional advice was offered there, though the connection of diet to uterine fibroids is not unknown.  What doctor out there can tell me how one should modify one’s diet to receive the same preventative benefits against breast cancer that Tamoxifen offers, without the side effects? hazmat

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Actually many MD’s know quite a bit about nutrition.  What I think the problem is regarding a medical doctor and their nutrition knowledge is that since they are physicians and work to treat one’s illnesses, the public thinks they should know everything regarding drugs, medicine, exercise, nutrition, supplements, etc.  This is a ludricrous notion. The key is to find an MD that has an interest in nutrition and supplements who is current on the latest research.  People think that one’s schooling is what matters when it comes to nutrition and that is the wrong way to view this topic.  An MD that stays current and is interested in nutrition will be much more adept at applying nutritional science to a patients treatment than a chiropractor or RD since they are also more qualified in the areas of pharmocology and the treatment of disease. — PeakHealth.net http://www.peakhealth.net Check Out This Month’s Exclusive Interview With Strength Coach Charles Poliquin "Sex, Drug Alternatives, and Rock-Hard Muscle" Online at: http://www.peakhealth.net/CPI_4

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<<<And exercise is relatively simple, when it comes right down to it nearly everyone knows how to walk.>>> You gravely insult the Physical Therapists with this comment.  Not everyone knows how to walk, bike, lift weights properly, perform yoga or Tai-Chi, karate, or even paritcipate in lifeling sporting events.  Most of us simply sit on our cans and watch other people do it.  Most of our kids didn’t participate in school athletics (take a look at the numbers), and the schools want to cut back on the number of recess hours on top of that!?! (Greyhawk Web Page:

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<<<Oh, and six times 2 hours is still only 12 hours, right? Actually the difference is 105 hours of nutrition training for a Chiropractor (not including continuing education), and 10 hours for an MD graduating from the University of Minnesota Med School.  MD’s graduating from the Mayo Clinic attachment get ZERO. I agree though.  Go to a nutritionist if you want advice on your diet or supplements.  I’m simply stating the fact that MD’s dont know shit about nutrition, yet the public thinks they’re "all-knowing." Comments and flames  welcome. (Greyhawk Web Page:

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<<<Walking:  Probably 85% of people do not harm themselves when walking, even atthe 4-5mph pace that I can maintain for an hour.  The rest should see an exercise physiologist or other trained professional.>>>> Tell me, Mr. Fancy-pants, how much walking do you need to do to get any benefit?  How much to raise your heart rate?  how many times per week?  What shoes do you need to wear? Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

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<<< and couldn’t treat things like broken arms and lacerations and problems requiring surgery.>>> You haven’t been to Oregon lately have you? Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

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>Chiropracter students NEED to take twice as many >hours as their average intelligence is markedly lower than MD >students. >>>

Is that why everybody calls me 69? Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

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(Emirikol7) writes: ><<< and couldn’t treat things like broken arms and lacerations and problems >requiring surgery.>>> >You haven’t been to Oregon lately have you?

   No, but if you’re right, I’ll stay away!                             James G. Blaine, M.D.

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