bacteria and ulcers

Chiropractic Healthiness » Chiropractor » bacteria and ulcers

Categories: Chiropractor

Question:

my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of antibiotics, no more ulcer. Traditional medicine triumphs again.

Response:

: >I don’t mind traditional medicine, but I couldn’t get a medical : >professional to take me seriously if I were unconcious. : It is unfortunate that you have had this experience with traditional : medicine. I guess I have been lucky because I have not : had that experience. If you have a pattern of having : medical professionals not take you seriously my guess is : that *you* don’t take them seriously and probably project : that attitude onto them. I don’t know for sure but that Well I don’t know if it’s my fault, but they look at my chart and see that I’ve been on Zoloft a few times and suddenly think: Oh — the woman is crazy. : would be my guess. If it happened just a couple times : then I would not be able to make that assumption but : if it happened several times then I would. Perhaps you : just gave up after a couple and did not give the : profession a chance. I don’t know. The last time I saw a regular family practice guy, I went because I had some sort of female type rash which I thought was yeast. Since the monistat-7 didn’t work, I went to the doctor. They tested for yeast infection found it wasn’t yeast. The doctor said this: Well, I can see you have some irritation down there. You know folks who tend to have mental problems also tend to "play" with themselves too much. I was in such shock that this guy even had the audacity to mention such a thing. In the first place, I had not been "playing" with myself and IN the second place, I have quite enough intelligence to know if I had been playing with myself and if indeed the rash was caused by that. Anyhow, absolutely nothing pisses me off more than a doctor accusing me of something like that. I get things like this all the time at the doctors office. I don’t understand. : aloha, : Rich Jill * Origin: Medical System Mu

Response:

<<The doctor said this: Well, I can see you have some irritation down there. You know folks who tend to have mental problems also tend to "play" with themselves too much. I was in such shock that this guy even had the audacity to mention such a thing. In the first place, I had not been "playing" with myself and IN the second place, I have quite enough intelligence to know if I had been playing with myself and if indeed the rash was caused by that. Anyhow, absolutely nothing pisses me off more than a doctor accusing me of something like that. I get things like this all the time at the doctors office. I don’t understand.>> Jill, I don’t know where you’re located, but you ought to file a complaint against this guy wit the state licensing board for physicians. It took a while, but patients finally nailed a ob/gyn in Portland, Ore., for physically abusing his patients. His actions were so bad and so pervasive that he was even arrested. jack * Origin: Medical System Munich – medsys.muc

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > . >The last time I saw a regular family practice guy, I went because I had some >sort of female type rash which I thought was yeast. Since the monistat-7 >didn’t work, I went to the doctor. They tested for yeast infection found >it wasn’t yeast. The doctor said this: Well, I can see you have some >irritation down there. You know folks who tend to have mental problems also >tend to "play" with themselves too much. >I was in such shock that this guy even had the audacity to mention such >a thing. In the first place, I had not been "playing" with myself and IN >the second place, I have quite enough intelligence to know if I had been >playing with myself and if indeed the rash was caused by that. Anyhow, >absolutely nothing pisses me off more than a doctor accusing me of something >like that. I get things like this all the time at the doctors office. I >don’t understand.

I certainly could not agree with you more that if the doctor said that to you that it was very inappropriate. For some reason the doctors that you are seeing have pidgeon holed you into the "mental patient" and are not taking your complaints seriously. This is a common problem in medicine in which if a patient has a psychiatric history it is assumed that their physical complaints are bogus. It is truly unfortunate that this happens. A couple stories to illustrate the problem that doctors have. For years a man with severe anxiety who expressed his anxiety with physical concerns showed up in the emergency room weekly with chest pain. Every time the EKG was normal. After years of this the doctors then assumed that the complaints were all "in his head". One day he had chest pain, the doctors assumed it was "mental" and unfortunately this time he was really having a heart attack. Another case of a paranoid schizophrenic who constantly heard voices and thought that people were trying to kill her. After years of frustration her husband did try to kill her but no one believed her. The moral of the story is that even psychotically paranoid people can really be persecuted. It is important that doctors take their patients complaints seriously but doctors like everyone else are human and are afflicted with the same kind of emotions that we all have and sometimes make errors in judgment. I hope you have better luck in the future with health providers and do understand your frustration in not getting the help. Aloha, Rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Jill

Response:

: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that : bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to : test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of : antibiotics, no more ulcer. : Traditional medicine triumphs again. How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. I don’t mind traditional medicine, but I couldn’t get a medical professional to take me seriously if I were unconcious. The only doctor who ever listened to me and acted like I was a real person and seemed to believe what I said was a chiropractor (I think chiropractors are considered alternative medicine though). * Origin: Medical System Mu

Response:

>: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that >: bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to >: test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of >: antibiotics, no more ulcer. > >: Traditional medicine triumphs again. >How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t >have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. It’s a triumph because once the link between this infection and ulcers was conclusively established, such a therapy became part of mainstream medical therapy. H2 blockers like Tagamet have been around for 20 years or so. It wasn’t until the early 80’s that _H. pylori_ was even suspected as a causative agent, and it’s only in the past 5 years or so that the association appears to be quite tight, and the effectiveness of antibiotic treatment for this has been established. There is definitely some degree of: "That’s crazy" => "Looks interesting" => "I knew it all along" in this process, but medical practice is conservative. That is both a strength and a weakness. The history of new therapies for ulcers has been fraught with false hopes and misleading claims (anyone remember "gastric freezing" in the late 60’s?) which ultimately didn’t pan out. It doesn’t help a patient to expose him or her to a potentially toxic therapy which might not be helpful, when there are alternatives which do help (here, H2 blockers, sucralfate.) Now that hard data are available on antibiotic regimens and there are ways to test for an infection, it’s one more thing doctors can use in the treatment of ulcers. Note that in the absence of such an infection, you wouldn’t expect antibiotic therapy to help. There are other potential causes of ulcers as well. >I don’t mind traditional medicine, but I couldn’t get a medical >professional to take me seriously if I were unconcious. The only >doctor who ever listened to me and acted like I was a real person and >seemed to believe what I said was a chiropractor (I think chiropractors >are considered alternative medicine though). I think you have a good point. A big process of "healing" is the human part; listening, empathy and time, which has tended to be tossed out as medicine has been more regimented (and the trend towards managed care isn’t helping this.) IMHO, that’s one reason many people report higher satisfaction from aelternative medicine"–since most conditions are self-limited, it often doesn’t really matter if the guy is a quack or not–people get the "strokes" they need from the exchange, and that’s often an important part in the equation. It helps to shop around for a good doctor who displays both technical competence and those humanistic qualities. Surveys report that women doctors are (on average) a bit better about this than male doctors, though I’ve had good doctors of both sexes. — Steve Dyer * Origin: Medical System Munich

Response:

: >I don’t mind traditional medicine, but I couldn’t get a medical : >professional to take me seriously if I were unconcious. : : : It is unfortunate that you have had this experience with traditional : medicine. I guess I have been lucky because I have not had that experience. I would request that the word ‘traditional’ not be used where ‘conventional’ is meant. Traditional medicine is a part of traditional healing, and has to have a ‘tradition’–which a few decades doesn’t create.

Response:

: Look, the US Surgeon General has issued an official recommendation that : ulcers not due to medications be treated with antibiotics. That’s about : as official a standard of care as you can get. It is now the common : practice of every gastroenterologist to at least test for H.pylori in : people with ulcers. Some treat only the people with positive tests, some : give a course of antibiotics to all their gastric and duodenal ulcer : patients, it depends on how conservative the MD is. This doesn’t sound : very much like people who are deliberately trying to use the least : effective treatment in order to milk more money out of patients. I don’t think you know the history of the discovery of H. pylori very well. The Australian MD had what any open minded person would call conclusive evidence that it was involved in ulcer-like problems. Now, given that there is very little risk in testing for it, or simply trying salts of bismuth, how can you in all honest say that a 15 year delay in even recognizing it is NOT based upon greed, arrogance, complicity by drug co’s, FDA, & AMA (not individual MDs, because, as I have previously stated, many of my friends are MDs and some even recommended the Pepto Bismol treatment 12 years ago; however, even today, some MDs ignore it, as evidenced by the original post!) * Origin: Medical System

Response:

: Heliobacter as the source of problems seeming like ulcers was first : discoverd and reported by an Australian MD more than 15 years ago. The : "Medical Establishment" refused to listen because his cure, mainly the : salts of bismuth (e.g., Pepto Bismol), sounded too much like Aelternative : Medicine." But there’s not much money in a quick, simple cure. It’s : more profitable to have recurring office visits and prescriptions for : Tagament and the like. Please do not take this as a condemnation for all : MDs, since I have many friends who are MDs and they know about and have : recommended many "alternative" therapies. Unfortunately, neither the FDA : or the AMA are as enlightened. Look, the US Surgeon General has issued an official recommendation that ulcers not due to medications be treated with antibiotics. That’s about as official a standard of care as you can get. It is now the common practice of every gastroenterologist to at least test for H.pylori in people with ulcers. Some treat only the people with positive tests, some give a course of antibiotics to all their gastric and duodenal ulcer patients, it depends on how conservative the MD is. This doesn’t sound very much like people who are deliberately trying to use the least effective treatment in order to milk more money out of patients. H.pylori was not accepted for a long time because it involved a whole paradigm shift in thinking. You’re complaining about 15 years being a long time; frankly I’m amazed that such a major shift in thought happened so quickly. In fact, it now looks like a lot of illnesses that we didn’t used to consider infectious are really due to microorganisms. CMV has been implicated in coronary artery disease; many autoimmune illnesses are now thought to be triggered by infectious agents, with the strongest evidence for Type I diabetes being related to coxsackie virus. And the evidence for viruses in some kinds of mental illness is strong as well, particularly the connection between borna virus and obsessive/compulsive disorder. The next thing that comes along will probably be accepted much more quickly now that these discoveries have been made. Shrine of the Cybernetic Madonna BBS 213-766-1356 "The board that Hates Rush Limbaugh *and* Newt Gingrich With A Passion" * Origin: Medical System Munich – medsys.muc.d

Response:

>my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that >bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to >test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of >antibiotics, no more ulcer. >Traditional medicine triumphs again.

The point to the bashing of traditional medicine is *not* that it doesn’t work. The point is that "traditional medicine" keeps a closed mind to anything that is different. So, when the guy made the connection between ulcers and H pylori a decade ago, "traditional medicine" scoffed at it. They scoffed at Shute’s vitamin E findings, they scoffed at the homocysteine argument, and they continue to scoff at everything that isn’t their own, today. So, saw palmetto as a Proscar alternative is getting panned by traditionalists, vitamin B6 for a multitude of things, including Carpal Tunnel Syndrome gets panned, Tryptophan – need we say more? Etc., Ect., Etc. I am glad that your wife got the cure for her ulcers. I am sad that it took so long. And so should you be. Jeff Forman

Response:

: I was in such shock that this guy even had the audacity to mention such a : thing. In the first place, I had not been "playing" with myself and IN the : second place, I have quite enough intelligence to know if I had been playing : with myself and if indeed the rash was caused by that. Anyhow, absolutely : nothing pisses me off more than a doctor accusing me of something like that. : I get things like this all the time at the doctors office. I don’t : understand. : Jill More evidence that med students aren’t taught social skills, because the study load is so extreme there is no time. "Gosh, gotta go, I’ve got my meditation session before my Biochem and Sensitivity classes, and I’ve just got to get a salad and some Tai Ji Quan in beforehand!" Not very likely. And why should it be? All that stuff is ‘unscientific.’ * Origin: Medical System Munich – meds

Response:

Not so fast ! The connection with Hp and stomach complaints has been know about at least since the mid 80’s.. The guy who had been studying the idea was more or less blackballed by the rest of the medical profession. He is now vindicated ! I found out about it in an article in Omni (8/90). there is something wrong here ! why the lag time ? regards- t.c. ps- come on JK ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >|: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that >|: bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to >|: test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of >|: antibiotics, no more ulcer. >|: Traditional medicine triumphs again. >|How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t >|have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. >The problem is that the connection between Heliobacter and ulcers >was not known until relatively recently. There probably were no >such tests, and the Tagamet was the standard treatment. >And who, if not traditional medicine, was responsible for the >discovery of a causative agent for many ulcers so a _cure_ could be >effected instead of just palliation? >|I don’t mind traditional medicine, [but... -- omitted] >Fine, but if you had an ulcer, only traditional medicine would cure >it, since only traditional medicine has isolated a cause and a means >to fix it. > /J >– >Pots: (617)873-3463 | — Robert H. Meneilly >ARS: KD1ON |

Response:

===Begin quote from Jill

—Begin quote from Jerry : |: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that : |: bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to : |: test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of : |: antibiotics, no more ulcer. : |: Traditional medicine triumphs again. —End quote from Jerry : |How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t : |have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. ===End quote from Jill : The problem is that the connection between Heliobacter and ulcers : was not known until relatively recently. There probably were no : such tests, and the Tagamet was the standard treatment. Heliobacter as the source of problems seeming like ulcers was first discoverd and reported by an Australian MD more than 15 years ago. The "Medical Establishment" refused to listen because his cure, mainly the salts of bismuth (e.g., Pepto Bismol), sounded too much like "Alternative Medicine." But there’s not much money in a quick, simple cure. It’s more profitable to have recurring office visits and prescriptions for Tagament and the like. Please do not take this as a condemnation for all MDs, since I have many friends who are MDs and they know about and have recommended many "alternative" therapies. Unfortunately, neither the FDA or the AMA are as enlightened.

Response:

===Begin quote from Jill

—Begin quote from Jerry : |: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that : |: bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to : |: test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of : |: antibiotics, no more ulcer. : |: Traditional medicine triumphs again. —End quote from Jerry : |How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t : |have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. ===End quote from Jill : The problem is that the connection between Heliobacter and ulcers : was not known until relatively recently. There probably were no : such tests, and the Tagamet was the standard treatment. Heliobacter as the source of problems seeming like ulcers was first discoverd and reported by an Australian MD more than 15 years ago. The "Medical Establishment" refused to listen because his cure, mainly the salts of bismuth (e.g., Pepto Bismol), sounded too much like Aelternative Medicine." But there’s not much money in a quick, simple cure. It’s more profitable to have recurring office visits and prescriptions for Tagament and the like. Please do not take this as a condemnation for all MDs, since I have many friends who are MDs and they know about and have recommended many "alternative" therapies. Unfortunately, neither the FDA or the AMA are as enlightened. * Origin: Medical System

Response:

* Origin: Medical System Munich – medsys.

Response:

|: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that |: bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to |: test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of |: antibiotics, no more ulcer. |: Traditional medicine triumphs again. |How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t |have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. The problem is that the connection between Heliobacter and ulcers was not known until relatively recently. There probably were no such tests, and the Tagamet was the standard treatment. And who, if not traditional medicine, was responsible for the discovery of a causative agent for many ulcers so a _cure_ could be effected instead of just palliation? |I don’t mind traditional medicine, [but... -- omitted] Fine, but if you had an ulcer, only traditional medicine would cure it, since only traditional medicine has isolated a cause and a means to fix it. /J — Pots: (617)873-3463 | — Robert H. Meneilly ARS: KD1ON |

Response:

Huh? If the doctor tested for the bacteria in the first place he would have treated her with the same antibiotic since if the bacterial infection was the original cause of the problem then it would have shown up in an original culture. >I don’t mind traditional medicine, but I couldn’t get a medical >professional to take me seriously if I were unconcious.

It is unfortunate that you have had this experience with traditional medicine. I guess I have been lucky because I have not had that experience. If you have a pattern of having medical professionals not take you seriously my guess is that *you* don’t take them seriously and probably project that attitude onto them. I don’t know for sure but that would be my guess. If it happened just a couple times then I would not be able to make that assumption but if it happened several times then I would. Perhaps you just gave up after a couple and did not give the profession a chance. I don’t know. aloha, Rich

Response:

>: my wife had ulcers for years, took Tagamet every day. When I read that >: bacteria, Heliobacter pylori, could cause ulcers, I asked our docter to >: test for this. She did have the bacteria. After two sessions of >: antibiotics, no more ulcer. > >: Traditional medicine triumphs again. >How is that a triumph? Your wife had to take a drug that she wouldn’t >have needed if the doctor had tested for that bacteria in the first place. It’s a triumph because once the link between this infection and ulcers was conclusively established, such a therapy became part of mainstream medical therapy. H2 blockers like Tagamet have been around for 20 years or so. It wasn’t until the early 80’s that _H. pylori_ was even suspected as a causative agent, and it’s only in the past 5 years or so that the association appears to be quite tight, and the effectiveness of antibiotic treatment for this has been established. There is definitely some degree of: "That’s crazy" => "Looks interesting" => "I knew it all along" in this process, but medical practice is conservative. That is both a strength and a weakness. The history of new therapies for ulcers has been fraught with false hopes and misleading claims (anyone remember "gastric freezing" in the late 60’s?) which ultimately didn’t pan out. It doesn’t help a patient to expose him or her to a potentially toxic therapy which might not be helpful, when there are alternatives which do help (here, H2 blockers, sucralfate.) Now that hard data are available on antibiotic regimens and there are ways to test for an infection, it’s one more thing doctors can use in the treatment of ulcers. Note that in the absence of such an infection, you wouldn’t expect antibiotic therapy to help. There are other potential causes of ulcers as well. >I don’t mind traditional medicine, but I couldn’t get a medical >professional to take me seriously if I were unconcious. The only >doctor who ever listened to me and acted like I was a real person and >seemed to believe what I said was a chiropractor (I think chiropractors >are considered alternative medicine though). I think you have a good point. A big process of "healing" is the human part; listening, empathy and time, which has tended to be tossed out as medicine has been more regimented (and the trend towards managed care isn’t helping this.) IMHO, that’s one reason many people report higher satisfaction from "alternative medicine"–since most conditions are self-limited, it often doesn’t really matter if the guy is a quack or not–people get the "strokes" they need from the exchange, and that’s often an important part in the equation. It helps to shop around for a good doctor who displays both technical competence and those humanistic qualities. Surveys report that women doctors are (on average) a bit better about this than male doctors, though I’ve had good doctors of both sexes. — Steve Dyer

Chiropractic Healthiness