Chiropractic Healthiness

Question:

The report came to me in a newsmagazine from the Canadian Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and was quoted from a seminar. Bob

Response:

I also got it in a mag. and at a seminar and at a vet but I want the original study not just the numbers.  I am very curious about it.

: The report came to me in a newsmagazine from the Canadian Association of : Professional Dog Trainers, and was quoted from a seminar. : Bob

Response:

Issue and Author please.   Thanks  Sorry if we are hard about this but it’s the second time it has gone around and we were never able to find it printed. dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The report came to me in a newsmagazine from the Canadian Association of > Professional Dog Trainers, and was quoted from a seminar. > Bob

Response:

Perhaps you are right if so I am truly sorry, but as I research dog studies all the time I know that they can be easily checked with a publication name and author.  We have all asked for that information days ago and the posted has replied to parts opf the posts.  I have heard this "one" "quoted" before (different numbers and groupings)and the studies name, date, author etc never surfaced there either and the person dropped it after repeated requests. I have seen training collars used (they are not called choke around here) in a very firm and effective manner. I have seen them pulled tight by a dog who is walking on a lead until it foams at the mouth.  I use body halters because it is how I was taught as a very young boy with Border Collies. They still work for me. Poorly designed studies outnumber well designed ones in some areas however this aspect (prong) was not mention over the 4 weeks – two years ago that it went around.  I do regret if the tone however if it affected a "productive way of communicating our distrust of the information".  By the way the last time it was said to have been done by a dog chiropractor not by a trainer or training group.  It was seen in an Ad for his services in europe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I don’t think it is fair to accuse him of "making up" information. In the > absence of EVIDENCE to accuse people of "making up" information I hope we > can find a productive way of communicating our distrust of the > information. > I’ve seen this study quoted before.  I’ve never seen enough information to > form an opinion on whether it is a well designed study.  Not everyone is > taught how to evaluate studies.  Just because a good study might include > that alternative does not mean that this particular study did.  I would > guess that poorly designed studies outnumber well designed ones.  Helping > people understand what it is about a particular study that might reduce > its validity is more useful than accusing them of "making up" information. > Explaining why you believe the information suggests a poorly created > control group benefits everyone, hurts nothing, and avoids the need to > regret making unjust accusations. > Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > " . . . approximately 90 percent of the behavior owners consider negative > occurs when their pets are isolated or alone."  "The Body Language and > Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Making up information I would say. A control group in a study like this > : mostly would not be using any collar at all. > : dw > :> > :> He was ADDING information, not changing it. > :> > :> Diane Blackman > :> Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

> My thanks to all the people who responded to this thread, there were some > really pertinent points. By the way, the same study (and I’ll try to get the > complete picture) found that of the 50 dogs in the control group that were > trained using "prong collars", only two showed sign of injury. One proved to > be genetic (no, they didn’t say how they found out) and one caused by > trauma.

Bob, I’ve heard of this study again and again but have never found a sufficiently good reference to actually look it up.  If you posted one earlier, I missed that message.  Please email me the information or, if it hasn’t been posted yet, post the publication information.  Thanks in advance. — Elizabeth B. Naime            *   Email may be forwarded and/or posted CUR 70 / FUR 212              *       * Standard Disclaimers Apply*

Response:

>My thanks to all the people who responded to >this thread, there were some really pertinent >points. By the way, the same study (and I’ll try >to get the complete picture) found that of the 50 >dogs in the control group that were trained >.using "prong collars", only two showed sign of >injury. One proved to be genetic (no, they didn’t >say how they found out) and one caused by >trauma. >Bob

I thought when I read your post you were talking of choke collars…. Now, to me, it seems like the story is changed somewhat, and we are on "prong collars" What is it??? Paulette~ A dogs life is too short…    Their only fault really…

Response:

:>My thanks to all the people who responded to :>this thread, there were some really pertinent :>points. By the way, the same study (and I’ll try :>to get the complete picture) found that of the 50 :>dogs in the control group that were trained :>.using "prong collars", only two showed sign of :>injury. One proved to be genetic (no, they didn’t :>say how they found out) and one caused by :>trauma. :>Bob : I thought when I read your post you were talking of choke collars…. : Now, to me, it seems like the story is changed somewhat, and we are on : "prong collars" : What is it??? : Paulette~ Ahem – :>to get the complete picture) found that of the 50 :>dogs in the control group that were trained :>.using "prong collars", only two showed sign of Choke collars were in one group – prong collars were in the control group. He was ADDING information, not changing it. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Making up information I would say. A control group in a study like this mostly would not be using any collar at all. dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > He was ADDING information, not changing it. > Diane Blackman > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Ahem Thanks Diane Paulette~ A dogs life is too short…    Their only fault really…

Response:

I don’t think it is fair to accuse him of "making up" information. In the absence of EVIDENCE to accuse people of "making up" information I hope we can find a productive way of communicating our distrust of the information. I’ve seen this study quoted before.  I’ve never seen enough information to form an opinion on whether it is a well designed study.  Not everyone is taught how to evaluate studies.  Just because a good study might include that alternative does not mean that this particular study did.  I would guess that poorly designed studies outnumber well designed ones.  Helping people understand what it is about a particular study that might reduce its validity is more useful than accusing them of "making up" information. Explaining why you believe the information suggests a poorly created control group benefits everyone, hurts nothing, and avoids the need to regret making unjust accusations. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – " . . . approximately 90 percent of the behavior owners consider negative occurs when their pets are isolated or alone."  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Making up information I would say. A control group in a study like this : mostly would not be using any collar at all. : dw

:> :> He was ADDING information, not changing it. :> :> Diane Blackman :> Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

I posted this before: Could you please tell me what journal it was in?  I was not able to locate this publication in any of the animal, anatomical, veternary, medical, or behavioral journals here at Penn.  At least not under the name A. Hallgren in 1992 dealing with dogs.  Was this an article in a magazine or on in a journal? Were you able to find the journal?  I was not.  Could you please post the name of the journal?  This about the 20th time I have heard the same study but I have not been able to find it or get anyone to tell me where to find it.  At first I thought it was partially fabricated or the numbers enhanced to get an effect but now I am wondering if it exists at all.  Our old vet even quoted the same study but was not able to tell me where it was from. Thanks

: My thanks to all the people who responded to this thread, there were some : really pertinent points. By the way, the same study (and I’ll try to get the : complete picture) found that of the 50 dogs in the control group that were : trained using "prong collars", only two showed sign of injury. One proved to : be genetic (no, they didn’t say how they found out) and one caused by : trauma. : In my own town both the veterinarians have told me about the rising number : of trachea injuries they are seeing in dogs that have received rough : treatment with "choke" collars". I’ve never allowed rough use in my own : classes, but will be looking for alternative methods in the future. I tend : to agree with those that have stated that if the collar is used judiciously : (as a "pop collar"), they are both safe and effective, but I can’t swear : that all my clients follow my advice about this. I still see far too many : dogs wearing choke collars all the time, and that is just stupid. : I’d like to hear some comments from the proponents of "clicker training", : and how effective it is in working with very active, dominant dogs. : Cheers, : Bob

Response:

Please post the Name, Author, Publication and date of the study. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My thanks to all the people who responded to this thread, there were some > really pertinent points. By the way, the same study (and I’ll try to get the > complete picture) found that of the 50 dogs in the control group that were > trained using "prong collars", only two showed sign of injury. One proved to > be genetic (no, they didn’t say how they found out) and one caused by > trauma. > In my own town both the veterinarians have told me about the rising number > of trachea injuries they are seeing in dogs that have received rough > treatment with "choke" collars". I’ve never allowed rough use in my own > classes, but will be looking for alternative methods in the future. I tend > to agree with those that have stated that if the collar is used judiciously > (as a "pop collar"), they are both safe and effective, but I can’t swear > that all my clients follow my advice about this. I still see far too many > dogs wearing choke collars all the time, and that is just stupid. > I’d like to hear some comments from the proponents of "clicker training", > and how effective it is in working with very active, dominant dogs. > Cheers, > Bob

Response:

>My thanks to all the people who responded to this thread, there were some >really pertinent points.

[...] Does this mean that you don’t actually have any DETAILS of these studies, or REFERENCES to cite, Bob? Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez. — Dogman Dogman’s *New* Web Site http://www.i1.net/~dogman Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm Jerry "The Shyster" Howe’s REAL Web Site http://www.i1.net/~dogman/scam.htm "If I had a dog that HID when strangers got onto my property, or threatened it, I’d cut to the chase and shoot the damn thing myself."                          Elaine "The Executioner" Gallegos-Gallant-Goofball "The Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual states right up front that it will not make sense to you."                                                                            Jerry "The Shyster" Howe

Response:

My thanks to all the people who responded to this thread, there were some really pertinent points. By the way, the same study (and I’ll try to get the complete picture) found that of the 50 dogs in the control group that were trained using "prong collars", only two showed sign of injury. One proved to be genetic (no, they didn’t say how they found out) and one caused by trauma. In my own town both the veterinarians have told me about the rising number of trachea injuries they are seeing in dogs that have received rough treatment with "choke" collars". I’ve never allowed rough use in my own classes, but will be looking for alternative methods in the future. I tend to agree with those that have stated that if the collar is used judiciously (as a "pop collar"), they are both safe and effective, but I can’t swear that all my clients follow my advice about this. I still see far too many dogs wearing choke collars all the time, and that is just stupid. I’d like to hear some comments from the proponents of "clicker training", and how effective it is in working with very active, dominant dogs. Cheers, Bob

Response: